Mike Veny was determined to overcome a lifetime of serious mental health challenges to become a professional drummer and a Certified Corporate Wellness Specialist. In this episode, we unpack his book, "Transforming Stigma: How to Become a Mental Wellness Superhero." Mike discusses depression, his past suicide attempt and shares advice on how to navigate mental health and wellness from a personal and corporate standpoint.
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For the safety of our listeners, we want to note that the following episode may contain information that some may find triggering and/or may not be suitable for younger audiences. Listening discretion is advised.
In this episode, we talk to Mike Veny about meditation, corporate wellness, transforming shame through self-care and the difference between self-care and escape activities.
Mike Veny was determined to overcome a lifetime of serious mental health challenges to become a professional drummer and a Certified Corporate Wellness Specialist. He’s the author of the best selling book, Transforming Stigma: How to Become a Mental Wellness Superhero. His expertise and life experience have been featured on ABC, NBC, and CBS news. As a 2017 PM360 ELITE Award Winner, our next guest was recognized as one of the 100 most influential people in the healthcare industry.
In addition to the MikeVeny.com, his insightful writing is published in Corporate Wellness Magazine and on HealthCentral.com. His captivating presentations are popular with companies, including Microsoft, CVS Health, T-Mobile, Heineken, Salesforce and The Wounded Warrior Project. Between delivering a TEDx talk, maintaining a lively YouTube channel and teaching continuing education courses, you can feel confident knowing that you will have an enjoyable experience in this presentation.
In his spare time, he enjoys weight training, meditating for 20 minutes twice a day, and eating a good bone-in ribeye steak cooked medium-rare. He lives in New York City and is ADDICTED to buying luggage, along with watching YouTube videos on how to pack a suitcase. His packing checklist for business trips is one of his most prized possessions. You can find Mike at @mikeveny on every channel.
Interview With My Depression - Mike Veny
Memorable Moments:
7:29: When we talk about the stigma, as we do with mental health, it's actually a three part process.You transform shame through self care. When you take care of yourself, for some oddball reason, you start to feel better about yourself. You transform silence through conversation. You transform the sabotage social injustice, self destructive behavior, and suicide through connecting with others at a deeper level, which is something we are so lacking in this world.
14:20: When we think about our businesses, we think about being productive and profitable and there's so many studies that show in a mentally healthy work environment, the company is more productive and profitable. So addressing it is a win for everyone.
15:43: And that's what I have been seeing when I've been speaking in workplaces, is that people are slowly starting to embrace that we can't put it [mental wellness] into a box. We can’t just get some breathing exercises and you're going to be okay. It's dirty. It's messy, but it's also beautiful and there's gold on the other side.
16:29: If you made that courageous step of getting help, first of all, it's important to realize that it's a process to find the right treatment for yourself.
18:38: We confuse escape activities and self-care. There's nothing wrong with escape activities, but it's important to distinguish the two. And when you do, you start getting on the road to a mentally healthier life.
24:01: When you participate in art activity, whether it's drawing, painting or anything, you get to have a conversation with yourself. That's all art is, a conversation with yourself and it allows you to express things that maybe you can't express in words.
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Ashley Tate, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Allison: Hello and welcome to the Dear Mind, You Matter podcast. My name is Allison Walsh. I’m a long-time mental health advocate and VP at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode, I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show, along with our mental health and wellness app Nobu, are just some of the ways we’re working to provide you with actionable tips and tools to take really good care of yourself, each and every day. So sit back, relax and grab your favorite note taking device.
It’s time to fill your mind with things that matter.
Angela: For the safety of our listeners, we want to note that the following episode may contain information that some may find triggering and/or may not be suitable for all audiences. Listening discretion is advised.
Allison: Today’s guest is Mike Veny. He was determined to overcome a lifetime of serious mental health challenges to become a professional drummer and a certified corporate wellness specialist. He is the author of the best selling book, “Transforming Stigma: How to Become a Mental Wellness Superhero. His expertise and life experience has been featured on ABC, NBC, CBS News. As a 2017 PM360 elite award winner, our next guest was recognized as one of the 100 most influential people in the healthcare industry.
In addition to mikeveny.com, his insightful writing is published in corporate wellness magazine and healthcentral.com. His captivating presentations are popular with companies including microsoft, CVS health, T-mobile, Heineken, Salesforce, and the Wounded Warrior Project. Between delivering a TedTalk, maintaining a lively youtube channel and teaching continuing education courses, you can feel confident knowing that you’ll have an enjoyable experience during his podcast episode.
In his spare time he enjoys weight training, meditating for 20 minutes twice a day and eating a good bone-in ribeye steak, cooked medium rare. He lives in New York City and is addicted to buying luggage along with watching youtube videos on how to pack a suitcase. His packing checklist for business trips is one of his most prized possessions.
Let's get into the show.
Alright, well Mike thank you so much for being on our show today. Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience?
Mike Veny: Well sure, thank you for having me on your show and hello to your audience out there. My name is Mike Veny. I’m a mental health speaker, author, writer, and corporate wellness specialist, and basically I’ve been struggling with mental health challenges for my whole life. And I’ve learned to use them as a tool to help myself and others. So, I believe that actually behind our mental health struggles there’s some real gold and that’s what I’m excited to talk to you about today.
Angela: Awesome, we’re excited too, and obviously are so glad you're here. Mike, I actually was just watching the interview you did with your depression earlier. I love it and I think so many people will, too, so we’re going to put a copy of that link in our show notes, if you’re okay with that. But, I think it’s a really great, sort of approach that you took to having that conversation and shedding more light on what that experience is like for you. But I wanted you to just to just share a little bit more about how you got there, how that came up for you, and was that your idea?
Mike Veny: Oh I wish. I was contacted by OC87 Recovery Diaries. They're a film production company and they wanted to do some kind of documentary with me. And I remember that the director Glenn was sitting in my dining room, talking with me and, you know, we weren’t really getting anywhere. And he said, “well, you know, if you, if you could, uh, you know, if I can give you one wish with your mental health right now, what would it be?” And I was so frustrated with my depression. I said, “I'd like to interview my depression.” And he goes, hold on, can you put two chairs together? And he goes, sit in one chair, ask your depression a question, and I did. He said, go in the other chair and answer it. And I'm like, this is weird. And he said, I think we can do something with this. So when I did the video, that was actually me on video interviewing myself. I was the interviewer. I asked myself these questions, then I switched outfits. And the questions were asked to me by someone else behind the scenes and what was so weird is, I actually got triggered in the video.
I actually got triggered and just went to a really dark place. I remember even the camera crew kind of like peeking their heads around from the camera, like, you know, because I was really just, um, letting it all out. And so I was really grateful because it was very therapeutic for me. And looking at it to this day is very helpful for my own mental health.
Allison: Well, I love that you were able to do that too, because it sheds a different light, right? A different perspective for maybe those that don't know what it feels like or might not identify with that, but it's so critical to have important conversations. You're a mental health advocate. You do a lot to really change people's perspective and perception and eradicate the stigma.
And I know I'm really excited for you to help unpack the book that you wrote, “Transforming Stigma” for our audience. So would you mind sharing, what was your intention behind this? Why did you want to do this? Just give the audience a little bit more background on it.
Mike Veny: Oh, so we're going to get real here.
I actually didn't want to do it. I was kind of bullied into writing a book. The people in my life, they were bullying me. I was a speaker for many years and I was the only speaker without a book. And I thought I was cool. It was like, I don't have a book. Everyone else does. But, um, I wrote it about superheroes.
You know, it started out with the Incredible Hulk, which all of you might know. And those of you that are listening or watching, there was a show in the 1970s, the Incredible Hulk, starring Lou Ferrigno, and the show went on for many years and everyone identified with it on some level.
And one of the reasons I think is because, you know, when you think of the Incredible Hulk, you have Dr. Bruce Banner, who's mild mannered and trying to keep it together at work, like all of us. But then when he gets triggered, he becomes this Hulk. Who's not necessarily evil or good, but definitely becomes a monster. And I think all of us can identify with that at some level. You know, right now, as we're doing this interview, we're being professionals and, you know, keeping it together.
But you know, when we're at home by ourselves, that hulk can come out. And so I figured that that would be a good way to start talking about stigma from a different perspective. And it led me to write the book. And actually the book was based on three principles that I used in 2011 to basically save my life.
Um, I was very suicidal at the time. Found a therapist, but as you know, it can take many weeks or in this day and age, months to set it up. And, you know, as I was waiting to get my first session, because I was in such a bad place, I went to the library and learned everything I could about stigma, just to try and save my life.
And I wrote three things down on an index card that essentially became my book. I carry those three things everyday with me, not to have them as a book but to save my life. And that's how my book came to be. And it became a best seller and we're selling out of those things all the time. And I'm just grateful that people have gotten something out of it.
Angela: Yeah. That's amazing. By any chance, could you share what those three things are? Or are you going to make us buy the book?
Mike Veny: You got to buy the book. No, yeah I can tell you right now. You know, I realized that just in my experience and what I learned, that stigma, you know, the definition is a mark of shame. And, but when we talk about the stigma, as we do with mental health, it's actually a three part process.
It starts with shame. So you might feel ashamed about something you're struggling with, or you might love someone [but] feel ashamed about their situation. The shame leads to silence and you don't want to talk about it. And the silence leads to sabotage, social injustice, self-destructive behavior and suicide. And the cycle just keeps going and going, but there's a way to transform it.
And that's what I talk about in the book. And I can break it down for you. You transform shame through self care. When you take care of yourself, for some oddball reason, you start to feel better about yourself. You transform silence through conversation. I mean, whether that's going to therapy or just sharing that you struggle. You transform the sabotage social injustice, self destructive behavior, and suicide through connecting with others at a deeper level, which is something we are so lacking in this world.
And so I realized, when I was intentional about each day, self-care, conversation and connecting, I started to see stigma literally transform in my life. And when I started sharing it with others, they were telling me how this stuff works. I'm like, whoa, I think we got something here and that became my book.
Allison: Well, I love that you wrote the book and then you've also, you've got the workbook too, to really help people work through it. So, not only are you educating, you're giving people action steps to take, right? Because it's one thing to absorb information. It's another thing to actually put it in motion. So, great job on that, for sure.
Mike Veny: Thank you
Angela: So Mike you bring up, you know, something that continues to be very taboo to talk about and that's related to thoughts of suicide and that experience that people have or some people have, not everyone, but I think what one thing I think is really interesting is that, you know, we don't talk about it.
We sort of act like it doesn't exist or that these thoughts and feelings and behaviors don't occur. Or for many it’s the discomfort of the topic or misunderstanding that talking about it will somehow exacerbate the issue. But, that's what I would love for you to share a little bit more about that and what that experience has been like for you as you sort of leaned into this space of actually being a face for and talking about your experience, and sort of normalizing that this is something that a lot of people experience. What's that been like for you?
Mike Veny: You know, It's been very comforting actually. I don't usually use the term mental illness. Some people choose to, I don't. But I did an experiment for a year. And please, if you're listening, do not do this experiment, just not. Um, but I decided to introduce myself to every single person I met and say, “hi, I'm mentally ill.”
I wanted to see what would happen. Now, keep in mind, in my line of work I have to negotiate with CEOs of major companies. I was on the board for the Rotary Club of Wall Street in New York. I had to be at my professional best. Every person I met, “Hi, my name is Mike, I’m mentally ill.” That was an interesting year because no one ran from me.
You know, no one made fun of me. I got a lot of hugs. Some tears, a lot of questions, a few people got frustrated and said, “well, I'm mentally ill too. Why are we talking about this?” But it was just so welcoming. And I actually got hit on by more women than I ever have in my life. So it was so weird and there was one day, you know, and I shared this with people where I was doing this.
I was on an elevator in New York city. Tiny elevator. I think elevators are always interesting because like, what do you say to somebody on the elevator? It's just always weird. And so I'm on this tiny elevator. It's a woman [who] gets on, standing shoulder to shoulder. So I decided to make conversation. I said, hi.
She says hi. I said, “uh, this building is sketchy” and there was a weird pause. And she said, “well, I work here.” And I'm like, “whoops, what do you do?” And she said, “I'm a therapist.” I said, “oh, I'm mentally ill. Can I have your business card?” And, she's been my therapist ever since. And I share that because where the stigma about when we talk about it in a low voice, it's not out there. It's in us. We talk about it in a low voice.
When we normalize the conversation, we take away that stigma. I opened a presentation years ago and I said something, I couldn't get the audience's attention. So I actually said from the stage “feel my boobies.” I said “30 years ago, it used to be called the big C. But the feel my boobies foundation now talks about breast cancer. Celebrities put pictures of their mastectomies online. That's where we need to get to with mental health.” So basically my experience has been beautiful and I allow people to have their own reactions.
So that's something else I want to bring up when you start talking about it. You know, if you're listening to this, you might be thinking, okay, this is great. Talk about it, but, well, what if somebody responds with blank or runs away from me? Here's the reality. I'm speaking as a professional speaker: you can't control someone's response to what comes out of your mouth.
If you try to control it because you don't want them to have a certain reaction, that's called manipulation. Your job is just to deliver the message and how they respond is how they respond. And you'll learn that with repetition over time. It just becomes normalized.
Allison: Well, I love the fact that you've been an advocate out there sharing your story. You're not afraid to have uncomfortable conversations or to challenge, you know, the norm, right? And for us, like everybody on this call right now, we're in the mental health world. We love it. We advocate for it. We've been in it for a while. We've experienced our own things and there's still so many folks that, you know, you start to have those conversations and it's like, “oh, I don't know. And I don't know if I'm ready for it.” Especially in the corporate world, right? And I think that, thank God, we are all now talking about it a lot more because you can't hide from the fact that your employees are struggling or their family members are struggling. It's just not appropriate to bury your head in the sand and pretend this is not a thing.
And you do a lot in the corporate world and corporate wellness and navigating this and having conversations that need to happen. And, you know, I look at what's the good coming out of COVID? I think one good thing is that mental health and mental wellness is at the forefront of the conversation right now, and it needs to stay there.
So, what have you noticed, working in the corporate world, navigating it? What are just some interesting things that you've experienced over the course of your career?
Mike Veny: Oh, wow. Well, first of all, during the pandemic, initially all my speaking engagements got canceled and I'm thinking it's going to be a year of reflection and self care and journaling. And within a month, I was busier than I ever had been in my life. And in one sense, that was great for the business. In another sense, really scary for the world.
Corporations and small businesses are starting to talk about it because it's very, very real. You spend most of your time at work, you know, during the week. So it's important to be sensitive to the people around you and the things they might be struggling with. And truth be told, when we think about our businesses, we think about being productive and profitable and there's so many studies that show in a mentally healthy work environment, the company is more productive and profitable. So addressing it is a win for everyone.
I have found people to be very receptive to it. And one of the reasons is because, you know, I just talk about it in normal terms that a fifth grader can understand. One thing I remind people that we, you know, don't realize is that we don't like things that are confusing, complex and frustrating. Actually, it makes us crazy. We don't like that. And if you think of this pandemic, I mean, and all the things that came along with it: confusing, complex, and frustrating. We don't like that at all. We need things in a box.
And I share with people, years ago, I was working out in the gym. I was doing one of these push-up routines where you put your hands in different positions. I was trying to impress this woman in the gym, I'm not going to lie. And I ended up hurting my wrist. I played it off though, left the gym. But I knew when I got home, I iced my wrist, it was either a sprain or strain or a broken wrist. Wait a few days, call the doctor. Mental health doesn't work like that. It's very confusing, complex and frustrating. And sometimes, it's someone who has to discover it for us in our behavior that, you know, we start to get on the road to treatment. So it's important for people to embrace that.
And that's what I have been seeing when I've been speaking in workplaces, is that people are slowly starting to embrace that we can't put it into a box. We can’t just get some breathing exercises and you're going to be okay. It's dirty. It's messy, but it's also beautiful and there's gold on the other side.
Angela: Yeah, that's great advice. It takes time. And especially, I think you mentioned this previously, but all of us on this podcast right now are acutely aware of the challenges in our healthcare system, particularly in mental and behavioral healthcare and access, and you know, the complexities of that. So I'm curious, just what advice you would give to someone who's really struggling with managing their mental health right now, maybe they're on a waitlist or they don't really know what's next? They're trying to figure this out. What, what sort of advice would you give to that person?
Mike Veny: First of all, if you are on a waitlist and you made that courageous step of getting help, first of all, it's important to realize that it's a process to find the right treatment for yourself.
A lot of times people go to a therapist and they go to one or two sessions and go, this is not right for me because I'm not getting answers. It doesn't happen right away. It takes time. And usually after about three, four sessions, kind of like dating, you'll see if it's a good fit or not. You’ll just feel it and just know it.
And if not, just keep trying and it takes time. It takes time to figure out what works for you.
Um, the other thing is focusing on self-care and I want to explain what self-care is, in my opinion. Because, you know, you go on Instagram right now and there's like pictures of the spa and, you know, Hawaii and people saying that's self-care. I want to get really straight on this: self-care is what you do for your health when you're not in the presence of a medical professional. That's it. Brushing your teeth is a form of self-care. So please be doing that. And it's important to be intentional about it.
But there's a difference between self-care and escape activities. And I really want to bring this up because a lot of people confuse the two. Watching Netflix, video games, those are escape activities. Self-care includes intentional things that you do to grow and nurture yourself. Maybe it's journaling. Making sure you take your medication. Making sure you stay hydrated. Talking to positive people in your life that make you feel good about yourself. But you have to be intentional about it.
Years ago, I outed a whole group of people. I was a keynote speaker at a self care conference of 1500 people. And I did something I probably should never do. I lied to my audience. I got on stage, I was the closing speaker, they were looking forward to me. I said, “ladies and gentlemen, I did the Mike Veny self-care assessment on all of you. And I have the results.” And these poor people are looking around at each other, confused. What assessment did he do? And they're looking through their papers.
Well, that morning, keep in mind, 1500 people at a self care conference, that morning, I went to the gym to work out and there were a total of three people in the gym. The night before, at the bar, there were 300. These people looked real embarrassed. Because it brought out a real truth.
We confuse escape activities and self-care. There's nothing wrong with escape activities, but it's important to distinguish the two. And when you do, you start getting on the road to a mentally healthier life.
Now, if you're really busy, like many of us, and you're going to say, “I don't have time for self care, I'll deal with that one later.” Here's an activity that just seems to work, that everyone can do. If you're really, really busy throughout the day: check in with your feelings. Ask yourself, what am I feeling? Oftentimes when I ask myself that I don't know the answer, but by simply asking yourself that, you start to get awareness around it.
The second question: where is it located? Learning to locate where a feeling is in your body is also helpful. You'll start to notice patterns. And the third question, what do I need right now? You might need water. You might need a hug. You might need to stop watching the news, whatever it is. You know, asking yourself that when you're really, really busy and have too much coming on,that's a way to start taking care of yourself and you'll be surprised that those three questions, “what am I feeling? Where is it located? What do I need right now?” will start you down the road to feeling better.
Allison: I love those questions. And I'm going to add on to that too. It was actually, we work with an organizational psychologist who really works to improve our team and our leaders, and one of the things that she said to me in our session this week was, at the end of everything you do, take eight seconds to just breathe. We're on this hamster wheel of just go, go, go, go, meeting, email, meeting, email, call, whatever. And it's like, if you just pause and take those eight seconds to breathe, reset, and move forward.
She's like, you'll notice this improvement in your energy throughout the day. So I am breathing. I know you’re a huge advocate for meditation too, so how’d you get to that? What do you do? How’d you land on this tool that is helpful?
Mike Veny: Oh, okay. I know we don't have much time, but I want to bring this up. When we're done with this recording, I'm probably going to pick up this mobile device right here and just check it for some oddball reason. This is a human behavior that we all have. In fact, when you're listening to this podcast, when you're done, you might just check your mobile device. We are so glued to that thing. It's become a habit and it doesn't allow us to pause.
And I love that you brought that up, Allison and the importance of pausing. I do a style of meditation called transcendental meditation, where you have to pay to learn it. Um, in the meditation world, it's considered the big mama of meditation, but ultimately I needed someone to teach me how to silence my brain and I've learned to do it 20 minutes, twice a day now. And it gives me, it's like the greatest gift in the world that I give myself 20 minutes, twice a day. My brain goes to like, nothing.
It's really, really cool. In fact, when I go into a meditative state, it's actually a deeper relaxation than sleep often. So when you start doing something like that, it gives you that break that we all need. The human brain is not meant to just go and go and go and go, having these notifications coming on our phones all the time. It's all this stuff. We're just not meant to be doing that.
So meditation is a great outlet to pause, to relax and calm yourself and center yourself, especially in the world we live in today.
Angela: You know, well first of all, I'm just going to circle back quickly because I know we don't have too much time with you. I love that you called those folks out, at the self care conference. I can't get over it. I think that's great, and I mean, it's again, highlighting this idea of, you know, this is a societal, cultural component of when we take time for ourselves, to be social, or we're trying to cut loose or let your hair down or whatever, insert your favorite statement,
But one of the things that I think you've also shown in terms of finding healthy ways to cope, creating healthy habits, things like that, is clearly this love that you have for, I don't know if drumming is the right word, but I know this is at least a hobby of yours. I would just love to hear a little bit more about how you got into that, how it became such a huge part of your life.
Mike Veny: Wow. I got the drum sticks like five feet away from me in my hotel room. I became a drummer in fifth grade. And it was the thing that centered me as a kid, as I struggled with mental health.
And I just want to say this, I didn't really say it before. As a kid, I was hospitalized in a mental hospital three times. I attempted to die by suicide at age 10. Self-harmed, was violent at home. I mean, I know the world of struggling with mental health and drumming centered me, so it became my career for many years.
And now my company, actually, one of the things we do is corporate drumming. And I work with groups like the Wounded Warrior Project, many different companies. It's kind of cool, I get to be an adult that goes in the workplace with my drums, adults get sweaty and happy and pay me. Like, that's my job. That's pretty cool, right?
And, you know, drumming allows us to number one, feel a sense of unity, which is something that many of us never feel and one of the reasons we struggle with our mental health. The other thing it allows people to do is to actually like, hit something in a way that's productive and let out anger and emotions.
And it's just really cool to watch. So for me nowadays, I mean, I do drumming in the workplace, as part of my company. But for me personally, it's a great way to have a conversation with yourself. And if you think about your own mental health, 90% of the time, we're having all these conversations going on in our heads.
Some we're conscious of, a lot we're not conscious of. When you participate in art activity, whether it's drawing, painting or anything, you get to have a conversation with yourself. That's all art is, is a conversation with yourself and it allows you to express things that maybe you can't express in words. And so that's why the arts are so important for people, and that's what drumming has done for me.
Allison: I love it. I think we all need to have an outlet. So important, some way to process how we're feeling and a good, healthy release too. So, thank you for sharing that. And we're going to wrap it up with our final question.
Before we ask you to share where we can find you, but at this point in your life, Mike, we ask all of our guests this question, what matters most to you right now?
Mike Veny: What matters most to me is my spirituality, and for me, that's not a specific religion. It's about just making sure my head is in the right place. Making sure my intentions are in the right place. And oftentimes, they're in a not so good place and focusing on spirituality allows me to bring it back. You know, when something happens in the world and I look at the news, well, I go back to me, my spirituality, how are you doing Mike? Regardless of what's going on.
And you'd be surprised it's allowed me to really, be resilient during the pandemic and get through some difficult times. So that's what matters to me.
Angela: Thank you so much for sharing that Mike. I know a lot of people can relate to that right now for sure. And thank you so much for joining us today, and spending a little time. Please share with our listeners how we can either follow you on social media or otherwise.
Mike Veny: Sure you can find me on my website. My name is Mike Veny and the website is www.mikeveny.com and my last name is spelled V like in Victor, E as in Edward, N as in Nancy, Y as in yellow, and I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and I have a YouTube channel.
So feel free to reach out to me and say hello and if I could ever be of help to you, let me know.
Angela: Thanks so much, Mike.
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode.If you're not already subscribed, we hope you join us regularly and please leave us a five-star review, wherever you get your podcasts. We hope that this podcast is beneficial to you and your wellness journey. Dear mind, you matter. is brought to you by Nobu, a new mental health and wellness app. You can download it today, using the link in our show notes.
We'll talk to you next time and until then, remember you and your mind matter.