In this episode, we talk to Dr. Elizabeth Cohen about divorce, how to talk to your kids about divorce, what affirmations really are and embracing the mess.
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Dr. Elizabeth Cohen is a clinical psychologist. She is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership Afterglow: The Light at the Other Side of Divorce. Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the Center for CBT in NYC. Dr. Cohen’s online course teaches women how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce no matter how difficult the process has been. Dr. Cohen received her PhD in clinical psychology from Boston University. She was the recipient of the prestigious American Psychological Foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects of 9/11. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall Show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women’s Health, Huff Post, Thrive Global, Daily Beast and Good Housekeeping. Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her “Divorce Course” column. Dr. Cohen hosts the Divorce Doctor podcast where she interviews people about their divorce experiences. Dr. Cohen is the author of, Light at The Other Side of Divorce: Discovering the New You which debuted at #1 on Amazon in popular psychology.
You can find Dr. Cohen at @thedivorcedoctor on Facebook.
Memorable Moments:
2:46: One of the things that I really think impacts relationships most profoundly is communication. And before COVID, lots of people found ways to avoid communication with their partner.
7:15: Women have been taught if they do anything for themselves, that it's something selfish. You know, I talk about deciding that you want a divorce or accepting that the person you're with wants a divorce is the bravest move you can make, because you're essentially saying I'm going to accept the reality.
7:50: Not only is there no shame, there's bravery, there's a resilience and there's strength in saying when something isn't working for you anymore and that you need to continue to grow. And some marriages grow with you and some don't.
10:09: Also know that doubting yourself is part of making a really big decision. I'm sure it's the same with getting sober. You know, it's this feeling of not being...I think there's a sense of you're supposed to be happy or unhappy, you know? And a lot of what we do psychologically, I think what we get into so much trouble [with], is we try to create a narrative for ourselves, like what we're going to tell a friend, how we're going to tell our kids what our story's going to be. And life is not a narrative. Life is so much messier than that.
17:12: If you're in recovery and going through a divorce, I mean, you just have to beef up your self-care. You know, I would say as if you were in the beginning, like, I would tell my clients 30 meetings in 30 days. This is no joke. This is a huge stressor. We know that recovery is challenged by stressors. Lean into the tools that work for you. Share about the divorce in the rooms. You know, don't hide.
20:53: I really want to recommend that people get support from the people who can support them.
22:31: In divorce, the ones that I like to use, really shift how we think about divorces as a whole. So my favorite one is, instead of thinking like “my marriage is over, I'm a failure” to think “my marriage came to its perfect completion. My partner and I got exactly what we needed from it. And now it's time to release it.”
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Ashley Tate, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Allison: Hello and welcome to the Dear Mind, You Matter podcast. My name is Allison Walsh. I’m a long-time mental health advocate and VP at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode, I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show, along with our mental health and wellness app Nobu, are just some of the ways we’re working to provide you with actionable tips and tools to take really good care of yourself, each and every day. So sit back, relax and grab your favorite note taking device.
It’s time to fill your mind with things that matter.
Angela: Dr. Elizabeth Cohen is a clinical psychologist. She is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership after glow, the light at the other side of divorce. Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the center for CVT in New York city.
Dr. Cohen's online course teaches women how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce, no matter how difficult the process has been, she received her PhD in clinical psychology from Boston university, she was the recipient of the prestigious American psychological foundation research award for her research on the emotional effects of 9/11.
She's been featured on the Tamron hall show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women's Health, HuffPost, Thrive Global, Daily Beast and Good Housekeeping. Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her divorce course column. Dr. Cohen hosts the divorce doctor podcast, where she interviews people about their divorce experiences. She is the author of the “Light at The Other Side of Divorce”, discovering the new you, which debuted at number one on Amazon in popular psychology.
Allison: Okay, well, thank you so much for being on the show today. Would you mind introducing yourself to the audience?
Dr. Cohen: Of course, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Cohen. I'm also known as the divorce doctor. I'm a clinical psychologist who has been in practice for over 15 years. I really feel like people have the capacity to heal and move through difficult times, and it's an honor to be on their journeys with them.
Angela: Again, we are so thrilled to have you, so welcome. I'm just going to jump right into this because we're here and we only have so much time, right? So I've read a variety of statistics on relationships during the pandemic, breakups, divorce rates spiking or falling, and you know, different sorts of statistics all over, in larger areas and smaller areas. So one of the things I wanted to give you some space to talk about is what you've seen over the last year and a half and also just any COVID-specific changes you've observed over this time.
Dr. Cohen: Yeah. Great question. One of the things that I really think impacts relationships most profoundly is communication. And before COVID, lots of people found ways to avoid communication with their partner. So we all heard jokes about, you know, the work husband or, you know, you go out with your girlfriends three nights a week, or you spend this weekend at your spin class, whatever it is, there were a lot of ways to avoid communicating about the hard stuff at home.
And I think what happened when we went into lockdown was that all of that went away. So a lot of people I worked with really couldn't avoid, as I would consider as a clinical psychologist, the fact that they didn't want to look or communicate or interact with what was happening in their relationship. And so I think there was really a moment of, do I either, you know, deal with what's going on or maybe find another way to avoid, whether it was drugs or alcohol or going internally. So some people did that.
So I think a lot of the increase that we saw of people pursuing divorce during the pandemic, I believe was from that, from this kind of you can't escape it, not unlike what happens when people finally decide to be sober, whatever that is for them. There's this, like, inability to escape any more.
Allison: Yeah, because we really couldn't leave the house, right? So you're like, do I even like you anymore?
Dr. Cohen: Yeah
Allison: And it brought a lot of that up. I mean, unfortunately, you know, I mean, divorce is a high rate anyways, but I did see a lot more of it and people moving towards it when realizing, you know what, this probably isn't the person that I want to be with.
Dr. Cohen: Right. And then a lot of my clients struggled because also then suddenly, the other person couldn't leave. So we have a lot of people who decided to separate who are still cohabitating, which is one of the most difficult things to be experiencing.
Allison: Right. Because when you're done you kinda want to be done. So, yeah, totally.
I get that. Okay. So, you know, I'm curious though, so that COVID perspective and kind of what happened over the last year and a half is always really interesting. I'm curious what you've seen, if any trends or what you're noticing with like the next generation of relationships and how they're looking, and are people really kind of approaching marriage differently or have you noticed anything in recent years?
Dr. Cohen: Yeah. In my practice, I've noticed a lot that's different. One of the biggest things that I, you know, there was this default I know in my generation and for many before me, of just that marriage or commitment is what you're supposed to do to show that you're a healthy person. And I really feel now, that this next generation is not associating marriage, which is a very kind of patriarchal idea too, of like settling down in a way that, and also a religious idea that isn't fit for everyone; that they're starting to say I'm not sure that defines me. I have these other things that define me.
And also, monogamy is not necessarily what defines me. You know, there's a lot more interest in polyamorous relationships, in non-committal relationships. And this is, you know, a lot of other countries, you know, do not have the same focus we have on marriage. This is a very American thing we have here. And so I definitely think that they're shifting. I don't think out of fear, a lot of people ask me that like, are they afraid of divorce? I think it's more coming from an internal place of knowing what they actually want and wanting to focus on other things and having a relationship as part of it, but not being the defining part.
And I think that's what's so troubling when you get divorced. If you feel like everything, if your relationship has been everything, then when you release it, you might feel like you have nothing. But if you've worked on having other parts of yourself, then it's just transitioning a piece of you, like leaving a job or something like that.
Angela: Right. And that actually just goes perfectly into the next question I had, and really we're talking more about the stigma behind divorce and one of the statistics or areas I was reading about earlier is that women tend to feel more shame and failure if this is an outcome or a result.
And so what would you say to those who are feeling that way right now, or to where that is sort of a, a bigger part of the picture, and I think you've touched on that with that, you know, is it an all encompassing component of our identity or a piece of it and how that's perceived, but can you say a little bit more there?
Dr. Cohen: Yeah. I mean, I think it's related. It's a great question to shame in general, that women have been taught if they do anything for themselves, that it's something selfish. You know, I talk about deciding that you want a divorce or accepting that the person you're with wants a divorce is the bravest move you can make, because you're essentially saying I'm going to accept the reality.
I mean, similarly, to getting sober. Like I'm going to accept the reality of what is happening instead of trying to push something that isn't happening. And I think that it's so courageous. You know, we, if those of us who have children, like all I want my kids to be able to do is to say when something feels right and when something doesn't feel right.
And so, not only is there no shame, there's bravery, there's a resilience and there's strength in saying when something isn't working for you anymore and that you need to continue to grow. And some marriages grow with you and some don't. But sticking in something and not and then holding yourself back from growing, A) teaches your kids that you should settle, and secondly, it doesn't allow you to become the best you,
Allison: If somebody is listening right now and they're like, oh my gosh, like, there's so many things that are clicking right now. And I feel like I've been granted this virtual permission to do something with my life and I want to do something. How do you handle that? When do people come to you? Do they change their position after they come to you? Or is it like full steam ahead?
Dr. Cohen: Yes, such a good question Allison. You know I like to say that, you know, there are three different stances. Like people always think there's, should I stay or should I go? But there's actually, I want to stay, I want to go and I’m not sure. And a lot of people come in that “I'm not sure” place.
You know, it's this kind of pre-contemplation state, and that's where I see most people who, by the way, have been in pre-contemplation for many years. So I, always on my podcast, I talk about, like, please don't feel bad if this has taken you a long time. I asked the people I interviewed like how long? And it's like seven years, eight. It takes the time that it takes.
And so, I often see people in that middle stage of not being sure. And that's a stage that we sit with. And I think what, we are a very binary world, so I try to help people really see that while there might be relief, there will also be grief. But we can't expect to just have one feeling, we're going to have many. That's really the first place I start, which is leaning into many feelings, because that can kind of, kind of allow the person to move from precontemplation/contemplation to making a decision.
Angela: Yeah, it's good to kind of have that in mind. I think as people are thinking more about where they may fall in this, if this is something they're thinking about, right? And just kind of like normalizing that's a process and there may be different periods of time where maybe you're leaning one way or the other. Do you find more, more strongly that someone's coming to you they’re really in one of those three buckets?
Dr. Cohen: Yeah, definitely. And just to also know that doubting yourself is part of making a really big decision. I'm sure it's the same with getting sober. You know, it's this feeling of not being...I think there's a sense of you're supposed to be happy or unhappy, you know? And a lot of what we do psychologically, I think what we get into so much trouble [with], is we try to create a narrative for ourselves, like what we're going to tell a friend, how we're going to tell our kids what our story's going to be. And life is not a narrative. Life is so much messier than that.
And so, if you can embrace the mess in that way and just know that there's going to be two steps forward one step back, then you can really figure out what you really want instead of worrying about managing what everyone else thinks or how everyone's going to feel. Really, like, leaning into the mess. But that's a lot of work as you know, I mean, that's a lot of work. It takes a long time to be able to feel comfortable with mess.
Allison: Well, we spend a lot of time worrying about what other people think when honestly, if we would just channel that effort and time and energy into ourselves and spending time being still, and processing our thoughts and being really honest about, are we living the life that we want? Are we living it in the way that we want? Are we truly showing up in our, as our best selves each and every day? And if we're not, what's a part of the equation that needs to get cut out or adjusted or dealt with or managed or processed or all the things, right? So I love that advice.
How would you suggest somebody help or support somebody if they're going through a divorce? Maybe they're the support system, they're the family member, they're the friend. What can we do to better support people that are going through divorce?
Dr. Cohen: That's a great question. And I get this a lot. And going back to what you said about, you know, we care what people think, I can tell you as a shrink, you know, everyone just talks to you about themselves. So you're just a human rorschach.
So, if you tell someone you're getting divorced and they say, “I'm so sorry,” that means they probably have a connected relationship. Plenty of people came over to me in the playground and said, “how'd you do it?” You know, wanting to find out. So everyone just says what's about them. That’s a little secret. Don't worry about what people think, but it's all about them.
And so when you're trying to support someone, so the first thing I would think about doing is, you know, getting them some good resources. A lot of people have said, bought my book as an opportunity to give to a friend, you know, tell them about some of the websites that you know about. Like really give them some action oriented things that they can do about their mental health.
Always ask open-ended questions. Don't assume. [Saying] “I'm so sorry” or “how are the kids doing” like, whatever. Don't assume, just say, “how are you doing?” And my favorite question of all time, “what can I do to support you?” You don't need to know what that person needs. You need to be a container and a safe space for them to tell you what they need.
Angela: That's such great advice because like you said, it's always so interesting how everyone makes it about themselves when they're, when they think they're coming in. You know, of course it's going to trigger your own personal experience. Maybe you've gone through something similar before, but like you said, you have, you're not this person, you are not living, they're not living your experience. So I think that's a fantastic word of advice. And actually, we actually got some, some questions from some of our followers. And one of the things that I know relates back to your book, love the book drop, by the way, we will have a link to that in our show notes.
But I know you talked a lot about thriving post-divorce. What does that mean? What can you tell our listeners? Like, how do we arrive there? What is the goal there? Give us some feedback on that.
Dr. Cohen: Great. So going through a divorce, you know, it is so incredibly easy to focus on all the external. So I tell a story in the book about one day, I was with my young children when I got divorced in the playground and people were asking me where their biological dad was and what was going on with him. And I started to tell these really difficult, painful stories about him and his struggle with the disease of alcoholism. And people's faces, you know, they were so responsive and they were crying and I thought, oh, I'm getting a lot of feedback. This feels kind of good, while I was telling it.
Then I left the playground and I felt like crap. I felt horrible. And I thought to myself, wait a minute. That was not like a story, that was my story. Like, I was just telling my story and it it's painful, but I remember there being two paths and I had this moment of, I could spend the rest of my life telling these graphics stories about him and there are many. Or I can ask myself, how did I end up here? In the most loving and compassionate way, you know, how did I find myself in this relationship? It wasn't like I woke up one day and was in it.
So I really think thriving is about genuinely, lovingly, compassionately trying to understand how did I end up here, and how do I want things to be different, and what can I do to make it different instead of “they need to stop this” or “they need to start this?”
Really, I think the key Angela, is looking at yourself and figuring out how you can thrive in this world instead of focusing on the other.
Angela: Yeah. And I know sometimes that's really difficult for people to hear because then it's like, oh, now I have to really look at myself. I have to hold up a mirror.
Dr. Cohen: Exactly.
Angela: But it's true. That's where the hard work comes in, but that's where the growth happens, right?
Dr. Cohen: Exactly. And you don't have to do it alone. You can do it with, there's a lot of guys, you can do with a therapist, you can do it with coaches. I mean, you do not and should not do this alone and know it's gentle and slow, but we know the only thing we can change is ourselves.
So I know when I had that moment in the park, I thought, oh, I finally felt powerful as opposed to feeling so powerless in my relationship.
Angela: Definitely. And another question that's sort of a good segway based on that couple other things we've been talking about, one of our other followers wanted to know a little bit more about what kind of support you might look for if say, and I’m not quite sure so I want to answer both ends of the spectrum, so maybe if you're going through a divorce with someone who is in recovery, and then also from this perspective if you're in recovery and you're trying to manage this, and that's something that you've really struggled with. Can you speak to sort of both ends of it?
Dr. Cohen: Absolutely. I can share from my personal experience, attending Alanon as someone who was married to someone who struggled with the disease of alcoholism, was one of the most powerful experiences and healing experiences of my life. So stepping into recovery for myself and realizing what I was doing to contribute, but also sitting with people, you know, I had never seen men, in particular, who were humble. So just kind of immersing myself in a room with men and women who could, you know, do what we're talking about, which is say what they did wrong and still love themselves. So that was so incredibly powerful. So if you happen to have a partner who struggles or is in recovery, like, get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting. I think that would be incredibly helpful.
And if you're in recovery and going through a divorce, I mean, you just have to beef up your self-care. You know, I would say as if you were in the beginning, like, I would tell my clients 30 meetings in 30 days. This is no joke. This is a huge stressor. We know that recovery is challenged by stressors. Lean into the tools that work for you. Share about the divorce in the rooms. You know, don't hide. You know, that's always, my fear is that people in recovery will, if something else happens, that they'll start hiding again.
Allison: That's incredible advice. So thank you for sharing that and continuing the conversation around how do we help those around us as we move through it. So what can we do if you're going through a divorce and you've got kids? What advice do you have to maybe mitigate or reduce the strain that divorce has on children?
Dr. Cohen: Such a good question. That's a big topic. I actually have a masterclass all about how to not screw up your kids during a divorce, because that's like, people's number one question. So it's so important.
I think there's two really important things. The first thing is to note this is a process. So lots of people come to me and say, “how should I tell my kids?” And I always say that's one conversation, right? This is a conversation that will last a lifetime. I've been divorced for 13 years and just the other day, my daughter came to me with a question about her dad that I had to, I felt as if I was telling her again. Like it’s just, it's a process. So give your kids the space to ask questions throughout their lives. Be a safe container where they can simply come and talk to you.
Then I just was interviewed for something and someone asked me, “well, what if there's a lot of tears?” Like, tears are good. You want to allow all the feelings. That piece that you don't want to do, this is the second important part, is you want to constantly separate out your feelings from their feelings.
So if your ex cancels the birthday dinner you were all going to have and you're enraged, ask yourself, is this about me? Or is this about my kid? Like, how's my kid doing? Because I know in my experience, very often, I wanted to jump in and fix the situation or change something or react, but it was really based on my rage and disappointment from my ex, not my kids' needs. So it's so important to separate that out.
Allison: I think it's so important, like you said, like differentiating, right? Understanding where it's coming from, who it's coming from, not pushing our own feelings on our kids and also allowing them to process things. So do you have any tips to help those that want to help heal from the pain of divorce? Anything that they can do, daily practices, anything, just, tangible takeaways?
Dr. Cohen: Yeah, definitely. I have so many. I think the first piece is really connecting back to yourself and that can be really hard. And a lot of times people say self care, and I just think that's a very kind of large and vague descriptor. As a cognitive behavioral therapist, I really like small behavioral actionable items.
So, I like to suggest that you take some time to just notice pleasure. So that means, you know, what kind of lotion do I like to put on? How does this shirt feel on my skin? Do I like ripe peaches or do I like kind of some mushy peaches? Like what do I like? And people might say, well, what does this have to do with being divorced?
Well, because going through a divorce is all about what do I want, what do I need and how can I get it? And so often in these relations, at least the people I work with, they've like sublimated their needs, so they don't have their needs back. So really small behavioral measures of pleasure and what you actually like.
Also, I really want to recommend that people get support from the people who can support them. I don't know if it's just me, but I happened to keep going back to the people who I call my book, naysayers, who I just knew were not going to be supportive. I think it was a psychological desire to change their mind. Like somehow if I change their mind, then I was right or something? But I was never going to change their mind! Like right now, you could think of a person who, you know exactly like that in your life, but why do we keep going to them?
So I really want to recommend that people go to what I like to talk about as, you know, they're unbelievable confidantes. The people who believe in them, you know, the person you call and they're like, “you've got this!”, whatever it is. Like they just believe in you. Go to those people. So that's another tool, like really think and be discerning about who you're asking for help from.
Angela: That's great advice. And one thing I know you've mentioned, and we talk a lot about, we utilize a lot in our app too, is really related to making things like affirmations really focused on you. What's going to help you versus just like plucking something out of an Instagram post and hoping that it works.
But I do know that you are fairly specialized in this and you do have this kind of pinpointed five affirmations to help you heal from the pain of your divorce. Can you speak to that and how that's worked with you? Yeah.
Dr.Cohen: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. So I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist. So the behavioral piece, I talked about the pleasure and this is like the cognitive piece and the, what I really like to get people to do is not to think positive thoughts. Like, that's not what cognitive therapy is. That's not what affirmations are. They're really specific to your situation.
They are also, in divorce, the ones that I like to use, really shift how we think about divorces as a whole. So my favorite one is, instead of thinking like “my marriage is over, I'm a failure” to think “my marriage came to its perfect completion. My partner and I got exactly what we needed from it. And now it's time to release it.” Like, you did this piece of work, right? So it really shifts how you think about it all together. So it's not, “I'm an awesome person,” even though those are great too. I had one of those for a long time. I had a very cheesy one that I said all the time. But this also just helps challenge how you think about your experience. So that you're actually emanating, like when people ask you, like, yeah, you know, we really, we did a beautiful piece of work together and it's come to its perfect completion.
Angela: I love that.
Allison: That is powerful, because I also think when you're able to reframe it like that too, you know, if people are nosy or trying to get in your stuff, and that happens to be one of your affirmations, talk about like a shutdown! Like it came to a perfect ending, moving on. Like stop gossiping and shimmy away. I love that.
So one of our favorite questions to ask and we ask all of our guests this, but at this point in your life, What matters to you most right now?
Dr. Cohen: That's a good question. I would say what, so everyone has a growing edge, so I'm working on myself every moment of every day. And I would say right now what brings tears to my eyes is having a voice; is saying what I really think and believe.
And as I say it, my throat closes up. That's how much I'm working on it. So to have a voice so that I can show women, my children, that words and feelings matter.
Angela: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And you do have such a large voice I've been following you now, and I know others who have just gained so much from just what you have to say and all the work that you've done. So we really appreciate you. You're going to make me tear up!
Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you share with our listeners how we can either follow you on social media or otherwise
Dr. Cohen: Yes for sure. I'm @thedivorcedoctor on Instagram and my website is drelizabethcohen.com. That's Dr. and you can get my book “Light at the Other Side of Divorce”, discovering the new you for yourself or for a friend, you know, from anywhere. I like to shout out to bookshop, which is a conglomerate of small indie bookstores, just to, I mean, give them a little bit of work, especially after COVID. So thanks.
Angela: Amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Carolyn, we appreciate you.
Dr. Cohen: Thank you.
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