In this episode, we talk to Sherry Walling about how to do grief better by navigating through our emotions no matter how painful, difficult, or heavy they may be, rather than avoiding, skipping or going around them. We also tackle helpful ways of confronting your grief without it overwhelming you.
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Dr. Sherry Walling is a clinical psychologist, speaker, podcaster, author, and mental health advocate. Her company, ZenFounder, helps entrepreneurs and leaders navigate complex human experience. She hosts the ZenFounder podcast, which has been called a “must listen” by both Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine. She is also the host of Mind Curious, a podcast exploring innovations in mental health care via psychedelics. She is the author of two books: The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together and Touching Two Worlds: a guide for finding hope in the aftermath of loss. Sherry and her husband, Rob, reside in Minneapolis where they spend their time driving their children to music lessons. She has also been known to occasionally perform as a circus aerialist.
Social Media Handle:
Instagram: @sherrywalling
Publications:
Touching Two Worlds: a guide to finding hope in the landscape of loss
Memorable Moments:
2:24 Any kind of human that’s under a state of stress is dysregulated. Their body is elevated trying to react to a stressor.
2:32 To help someone feel better in the midst of stress is to reregulate or bring their body and their mind down to homeostasis. Thoughts go slower, the heart beats slower, and breath is slower. If we can turn the slow-motion dial on that often helps stress feel much more manageable and accessible.
3:22 When we can feel that sense of agency over our bodies and our lives, that feels so much better than feeling stuck on the tilt-a-whirl at the fair. And we're just moving so fast and we're like, ‘Yeah, I wanna get off.’
4:47 Being in my own grief after the losses (of my dad and brother), one of the things that were so helpful to me was I really connected with my own body.
6:13 When we get into some kind of emotional expression, we can breathe again. It's a big exhale. It’s like putting down the heaviness of all that we are carrying and being present with a different experience.
6:27 Emotional expression allows you to have a little lightness, a little levity, or really express some of those negative emotions. Feel into your anger. Feel into your fear, but not in a way that feels like it's going to be overwhelming for you.
6:52 Our society is kind of set up to move quickly through grief. Like policies related to bereavement leave. You might go to your mom's funeral on Saturday and on Tuesday, you're supposed to be back at work. There's not a lot of space for grief.
7:09 A lot of us feel like we gotta muscle through hard things when we're in pain or suffering. But the tendency is to just keep going, just keep moving, just be gritty. And those aren't bad messages. I just think they may be out of balance.
7:30 Don’t go around pain or suffering. Don't avoid it. Don't skip over it. Talk about it. Feel it. Express it. Move toward the heart of what's difficult, knowing that that's where all the growth lies. That's where all the lessons are.
8:03 When you go in and through something - for instance, grief - there's no part of you that you don't have access to. There's no part of you that you feel like you have to hide from.
8:56 Writing can be helpful for people who like to journal. Writing about your own experience can be a really powerful way to do some of that in and through work.
9:13 If you feel like you want the presence of another human, it will help to be in therapy or go to a support group where you can begin to tell the stories to give life and words to the things that feel painful.
9:33 You can also try expressive movement such as a five rhythms dance practice where you pair different kinds of movement with different kinds of emotion. It can be a yoga session. There's something really can be quite healing about holding a warrior position and lingering there and letting your body do the work to breathe through and to hold that position.
10:55 Doing grief better means talking about grief. It’s naming those that we've lost. Naming the hopes that we had that never came to be.
11:12 Doing grief better means we're collectively comfortable moving in and out of tender spaces, knowing that we can do that with gentleness and with some graciousness and not feel like we have to, again, skip over it and just get back to work and get back to normal life. That is quite damaging to people who are in any kind of grief.
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Angela Phillips. This podcast is produced by Allison Walsh, Savannah Eckstrom and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Allison: 00:02
Hello and welcome to the dear mind, do you matter podcast? My name is Allison Walsh. I'm a longtime mental health advocate and vice president at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show along with our mental health and wellness app, Nobu are just some of the ways we're working to provide you with actionable tips and tools to take really good care of yourself each and every day. So sit back, relax and grab your favorite note taking device, it's time to fill your mind with things that matter. Dr. Sherry Walling is a clinical psychologist, Speaker podcaster author and mental health advocate. Her company Zen founder helps entrepreneurs and leaders navigate complex human experience. She hosts Zen founder podcast, which has been called a must listen by both Forbes and Entrepreneur magazine. She is also the host of mind curious, a podcast exploring innovations in mental health. She is the author of two books, the entrepreneurs guide to keeping your shit together and touching two worlds a guide for finding hope in the aftermath of loss. Sherry and her husband Rob reside in Minneapolis, where they spend their time driving their children to music lessons. She has also been known to occasionally perform as a circus, aerialist, please welcome to the show, Dr. Sherry walling. Okay. Well, Sherry, thank you so much for being on our show today, would you mind introducing yourself to our audience,
Dr. Sherry Walling 01:26
thanks for having me. So I am a clinical psychologist, and an author. I'm a mama, I have a side life as a circus artist, which is, you know, random, but fun. And I do a lot of work in the world to help people with hard things. For me right now, like a focus on working with entrepreneurs and supporting their mental health needs and the mental health needs of those in their companies.
Allison: 01:46
I think there's probably been something that definitely became even that much more important as a result of the pandemic, right, like a natural spiral that a lot of people have been on that and probably didn't anticipate, or they're feeling additional pressures and stress. So how do you help somebody that maybe is struggling, whether it is as an entrepreneur or helping businesses with their people, right, I think that's a huge part of what needs a lot more attention these days. I think everybody realizes they need to, but then like, what happens next?
Dr. Sherry Walling 02:13
Like how do you do that? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one of the words that I think about a lot in my work is the word regulation. And helping company owners really any kind of human when they're under a state of stress, they're dysregulated by their body is like elevated trying to react to a stressor. And so when we're thinking about helping someone feel better, in the midst of stress, we're thinking about helping them to reregulate or bring their body their mind down to homeostasis. So thoughts go slower heartbeats, slower, breath is slower. So if we can turn the slow motion dial on, that often helps stress feel much more manageable and accessible, that little
Allison: 02:54
piece of advice can go a really long way, right? Because it's so true. And there's been a lot of things to stress us out recently, right. So between the pandemic, now we're facing a recession, we've got all of these other things, all of this uncertainty, and then just the day to day of life, the world can
Dr. Sherry Walling 03:10
feel so fast, and so out of control. And so anytime that we can, like find a little bit of control sounds like maybe a bad word, but like agency access, when we can feel that sense of agency over our bodies and our lives that feels so much better than feeling like stuck on the total world at the fair, and we're just moving so fast. And
Allison: 03:33
we're like, I want to get off, like I've been on holiday till two worlds. Right, like,
Dr. Sherry Walling 03:41
literal and hypothetical.
Allison: 03:43
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction or mental health issues, we encourage you to reach out to us today. Advanced Recovery Systems is a leading behavioral health care company with locations across this country. Don't hesitate, call us today at 855-409-1753. That's 855-409-1753 help is just a phone call away. You do talk a lot about like expressive movements and how beneficial that can be. So can we pause there for a second and just share more about that for the audience?
Dr. Sherry Walling 04:17
Yeah, so I've had this really unusual journey. And these last few years of my life, I trained to be an academic psychologist. I was a professor, I had sort of this big job in the world. But a few years ago, some things began to unravel. In my personal life. My dad was diagnosed with cancer and my brother took a deep dive into his own addiction and mental illness. And to make a long story short, they both died in very close proximity to each other. And so I had this couple year period of watching them unravel and then being in my own grief after their losses. And one of the things that was so helpful to me, Allison is I just started to really connect with my own body. I'd been a yoga teacher, I'd been involved I've done yoga before, but I started to practice aerial arts, which is like, you know, sort of sick days, the lay people climbing up a fabric and spinning down. And then I started training in the Flying Trapeze. Again, these are like, you know, maybe not everybody's cup of tea, but really helped me to connect to my body and to movement that was both athletic and strong, but also expressive and emotional. And it was really one of the things that kind of helped save me during this very difficult period of my life.
Allison: 05:31
I'm so sorry that you experience those losses. But finding something for yourself, too, is so important. I think sometimes naturally, we just shove it down, right, and we keep moving or just think it's gonna pass. But I think being very intentional about finding something that allows expression, whether it's movement, whether it's art, whether it's something that allows you to really let that out of you, however, that may look or feel. So I think that's a really powerful takeaway for people that are listening right now is to find something find an outlet
Dr. Sherry Walling 06:04
kind of opens that release valve. I mean, we talked a little bit about just all that we're holding collectively, from the pandemic, from the recession from all of the stressors around us. And when we get into some kind of emotional expression, we can breathe again, it's a big exhale, like, I can put down the heaviness of all that I'm carrying, and be present to a different experience and have maybe a little lightness a little levity, or really express some of those negative emotions, like feel into our anger, feel into our fear, but not in a way that feels like it's gonna be overwhelming for us.
Allison: 06:36
Really powerful advice. So thank you for that. And I'm sure this kind of goes hand in hand of what it means to go in. And through difficult experiences. You talk a lot about that as well. So could you share more?
Dr. Sherry Walling 06:47
Yeah, I think one of the lessons of grief for me has been, our society is kind of set up to move quickly through grief, right, you know, our policies related to like bereavement leave, for example, you might go to your mom's funeral on Saturday, and on Tuesday, you're supposed to be back at work, like there's not a lot of space for grief. And so as a result, I think lots of us feel like we got to muscle through hard things when we're in pain, or we're in suffering, but cent tendency is to like just keep going just keep moving, just be gritty. And those are bad messages, I just think there may be out of balance with in my work as a clinician this conversation around going in and through the pain in and through the difficulty. So you don't go around it, you don't avoid it, you don't skip over it, you talk about it, you feel it, you express it, you move toward the heart of what's difficult, knowing that that's where all the growth lies. That's where all the lessons are, that's where all this sort of juicy stuff happens. And it's in going toward it, then you are able to move through it. And I think that difference between you know, going through something difficult and 15 years later, it's still hurts to talk about it or it's still a place a shadowy corner of your soul that you don't want to go toward you want to avoid. But when you go in and through something, there's no part of you that you don't have access to. There's no part of you that you feel like you have to hide from.
Allison: 08:11
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Dr. Sherry Walling 08:55
Yeah, one of the places that I think is really helpful is writing. Not everybody's a writer, not everybody loves doing that. But for people who like to journal writing about your own experience can be really, really powerful way to do some of that in and through work. If you don't like writing or you feel like you want the presence of another human then being in therapy or going to a support group, someplace where you can begin to tell the stories to give life and words to the things that feel painful and untouchable. Those are really important practices. And if words and language aren't your deal at all, then I would suggest to you an expressive movement practice. That can be a five rhythms dance practice, where you pair a different kind of movement with different kinds of emotion. It can be a yoga practice for many, you know, for people who practice yoga, there's something really can be quite healing about holding a warrior position and just lingering there and letting your body do the work to breathe through and to hold that position. And if you do that with intention, it can can be an in and through kind of practice.
Allison: 10:02
That's great advice. And I think there's probably something for everybody that you just mentioned. And it's really finding what works for you too. And I think sometimes people get discouraged because maybe what somebody else is used to help them heal doesn't necessarily work for them. And then they stop because they feel like, you know, it's not working, and they can get very frustrated. So just encouraging people that are listening now that maybe if one thing hasn't worked, don't quit on yourself, keep doing the work. I know, you also talk about just doing grief better, right? And, you know, Can we pause there too, and maybe give some guidance or advice around that concept.
Dr. Sherry Walling 10:36
I think doing grief better does mean this in and through concept. It's telling the stories that when I am talking about my life, I can talk about I have a brother, his name was Dave, and he died by suicide. And it was horrible for me. But it's also part of me. And so I can carry that story along with me. And so doing grief. Butter means talking about grief. It means naming those that we've lost naming the hopes that we had that never came to be, and not letting it be something that has to be like, Oh, no, we don't want to disrupt the sad person, or we don't want to remind her that her brother's dead. It's more that we're collectively comfortable moving in and out of tender spaces, knowing that we can do that with gentleness and with some graciousness, and not feel like we have to, again, skip over it and just get back to work and get back to normal life. I think that is quite damaging to people who are in any kind of grief.
Allison: 11:32
And I loved the phrase that you used about tenderness. There's a kindness to that there's a comfort, just even thinking about it in that way. So thank you for sharing it like that. I've talked to a lot of people about grief before and I haven't heard that phrasing. And that was just very inspiring, hopefully for somebody that maybe is thinking about working on themselves or working through this or honoring what they've experienced and taking it with them, but not letting it fully define them or be the reason why they're not able to move beyond. So thank you for that. We love to ask all of our guests that come on this show at this point in your life. Sherry, what matters most to you right now?
Dr. Sherry Walling 12:09
Wow, that's such a big question. I think one default answer is my relationships. But that feels actually quite profound. Because I think many people have spent a lot of my life building my success, building my career connected and committed to the things that I wanted for myself and my own ambition. I think that's a good maybe stance to have at a certain point in life. But now that I'm in my mid 40s, and I'm well established in some of those ways, like everything that really matters to me at this point is the people around me, my children, my partner, my humans, my friends, that's a lovely place to be at this point.
Allison: 12:48
Relationships are amazing, right? The precious and challenging
Dr. Sherry Walling 12:51
the impetus for all of our growth and all of our great hair, but also precious duality,
Allison: 12:59
I echo that very much so so well. Sherry, thank you so much for being on our show today. I am sure there are people that are going to want to know how to find you how to connect with you, please share your information. And we will of course link it in the show notes too.
Dr. Sherry Walling 13:13
If the conversation around grief and grieving well resonates with people, I have just written a new book called touching to worlds which is about the combination of living in grief and also joy. I think it's a good offering that will hopefully be helpful to folks.
Allison: 13:27
I am sure it will be and thank you so much for being here. And I encourage everybody to pick up a copy and read that one and your first one, which I think is the coolest name and hope that you continue to write and lean into that amazing skill set and talent that you have as well to connect with people through your words in writing. So thank you for that.
Dr. Sherry Walling 13:45
Thank you so much. It's been a lovely conversation. Alison.
Angela: 13:50
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribed, we hope you join us regularly. And please leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts if you enjoyed the show. We hope that this podcast is beneficial to you and your wellness journey. Dear mind you matter is brought to you by Nobu, a new mental health and wellness app. You can download it today using the link in our show notes. We will talk to you next time and until then remember you and your mind matter