In this episode, we talk to Jenna Kutcher about identity foreclosure, changing our minds and how boundaries and burnout are linked.
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Jenna Kutcher guides millions of listeners each week in chasing their dreams on the #1 Marketing podcast in the country, The Goal Digger.
A born-and-raised Minnesota wife, mother, and entrepreneur, Jenna has helped women all over the world redefine success and wake up to their lives through her decade-long work as a leading online educator.
Social Media Handle: @jennakutcher
Memorable Moments:
2:38 I feel like we're in a very unique time right now, where a lot of us are kind of experiencing this push and pull of like, Where do I belong? And I feel like we're in such a polarizing world in so many different ways. But one of the ways is, especially as ambitious people, ambitious women, we're feeling like we have to pick between hustle culture; this idea, this notion of like “work harder, do more, just keep going” and the other idea, the other side of the coin is the manifesting, like, you know, just hold this vision and speak it out and it'll happen. And I feel like I live in this gray area in so many places in my life, but specifically in how can we hold these visions of what we really deeply desire for our life but also, how can we take even micro action towards them?
5:03 I think that there are, a lot of times, two different people: there's the "jump and then the net will appear" and then there's the people that are like, "I'm gonna weave this net so that I know with security and safety, I can make the leap."
5:44 But for me, sometimes learning what I don't want or what I will not take or what I don't feel is in alignment with me is a better indicator of how I can start moving in the right direction.
5:57 I felt like I was riding two Clydesdales going in opposite directions because the life I was living did not showcase what I really wanted, what my values were, what I was heading towards. And in order to figure out how to jump from one horse to the other, I had to just take these micro actions and start working towards that vision of something else.
7:45 I know so many people who start the degree for the dream job and halfway through the degree, they know that they don't want that job anymore. But they feel like they've already spent two years, why would they waste that? And it's like, Wait, we're wasting our future, knowing we're moving in a direction that's not going to serve us? And so for me, what's been so fascinating is working through this process of figuring out who am I? But not just who am I today, but who do I want to become? And I think a lot of times we put so much pressure on like, what sounds impressive, what sounds good, instead of saying what feels good in my life, how do I want to feel?
8:58 Our identities aren't fixed. We are constantly changing and growing and evolving. And I want us to continue becoming.
9:13 And a changed mind, I think, is like one of the most beautiful things that we can gift ourselves and in doing that, invite other people to maybe consider different things so that we can continue changing our identities, as we should as students in this thing called Life School and as people who can have their mind changed and become something different.
11:18 Being a mom to a toddler, I've learned that you can tell a kid a stove is hot, but sometimes they need to touch it to experience it. And I think that a lot of people are that way; they have to experience something to really know that they don't want to do that again. But I think that the way that we are perpetuating this hustle mentality, it is only going to lead us there. And we have become people who have tuned out those check engine lights so long that something has to suffer for us to wake up to the fact that we're not doing something that's sustainable, whether it's relational or health-related.
12:20 One of the things that I think is really important, is to talk about boundaries. I feel like balance was the word for a long time. And I feel like boundaries is the new word.
12:53 But boundaries, to me, have been my saving grace. They have been the thing that has kept me in my life...And so, when we think about burnout, what I want to come coupling alongside of that is boundaries, and how can we invite them into our lives, to really preserve our lives so that the lives that we're living feel good, but that we're enjoying them that we're not faking to enjoy them, or that we're not spending the whole journey in pursuit of the thing, missing the point.
17:45 Strategy can get you really far. But when you really start to invest in who you are and who you're becoming, as a human being, that's when things really skyrocket.
18:08 If you don't have community in that way, find ways to invite it because it can be a really lonely journey, no matter what you're doing, when you don't have somebody who's in that similar life stage.
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Savannah Eckstrom, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Allison: 00:02
Hello and welcome to the dear mind, do you matter podcast. My name is Allison Walsh. I'm a longtime mental health advocate and vice president at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show along with our mental health and wellness app, Nobu are just some of the ways we're working to provide you with actionable tips and tools to take really good care of yourself each and every day. So sit back, relax and grab your favorite note taking device, it's time to fill your mind with things that matter. Jenna Kutcher is an expert at online marketing, she is obsessed with teaching others how to make a living doing what they love. She is an unbelievably successful host of the gold digger podcast. If you haven't subscribed, do it right now. It is phenomenal. And she cares deeply about her audience. She is the real deal. She has a new book coming out called How are you really. And we got the chance to sit down and talk all about why this book is so important right now. So I am thrilled you're here. And I'm so excited to introduce you to Jenna Kutcher. So well, Jenna, I am so excited to have you on the show today. Would you mind just giving a brief intro and we will get right to it?
Jenna Kutcher 01:19
Absolutely. Well, first off, just thank you so much for having me out. And this is such a treat. I'm so grateful that you're a part of my community. And it's just so fun to connect. But I'm Jenna Kutcher. I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I have two little ones, and I'm an entrepreneur, I'm also a podcaster, just like you so I host the gold digger podcast. And I recently added author to my resume with my new book, how are you really, and I'm just so excited to get it out into the world and get it into people's hands. And so that's kind of where we're at these days.
Allison: 01:49
Perfect. And I am so excited because it has been such a pleasure to be a part of kind of like the behind the scenes look, launch. And I love anytime I get a chance to get a sneak peek and this book is fabulous. And I love the fact that you're asking us to ask this question of ourselves really what it boils down to. So let's talk about why why was it time for this book baby to make its way into the world?
Jenna Kutcher 02:14
Oh, my gosh, what a good question. And you know, it's so funny is that for so long, I said I would never write a book, I have done so many things in my entrepreneurial decade. And a book was never one of them. Because it just wasn't the right timing. And I'm so grateful that I never forced a book or, you know, took those opportunities that people had presented, because it just wasn't the right time. And so I feel like we're in a very unique time right now, where a lot of us are kind of experiencing this push and pull of like, Where do I belong? And I feel like we're in such a polarizing world in so many different ways. But one of the ways is, especially as ambitious people, ambitious women, we're feeling like we have to pick between hustle culture, this idea, this notion of like work harder, do more, just keep going. And the other idea the other side of the coin of the manifesting, like, you know, just hold this vision and speak it out. And it'll happen. And I feel like I live in this gray area in so many places in my life, but specifically in how can we hold these visions of what we really deeply desire for our life? But also, how can we take even micro action towards them? How can we be awake to our lives in these active participants. And so this message has just been this theme in my life with conversations with the women that I love. And it when it started flowing, it really flowed so naturally because it was just like what I want to tell my friends, what I want to tell myself, and then what I want to tell the world and I really thought about my daughter someday reading this book and having it almost be this permission slip of like you can live in this area of gray and work towards the life that you want to have.
Allison: 03:54
And I love the way that you phrase it too. And you know, in the book, it talks about the tiny things, right? Yeah, having to make a massive sweeping change all at one time, which I think is where a lot of people get stuck because I can't do this right. And the fear right stops us from from making any progress. But the tiny habits so can you give the audience just some suggestions or guidance around kind of how you encourage people to do this because you are very futuristic in your thought process. Right? Like I love the story you share of you know, being in your position and going you know what, I don't want that. Yeah, sure. And yeah, started to make the changes subtly over time. So let's talk about that a little bit more.
Jenna Kutcher 04:35
Oh, I love this. So I was in a corporate setting and they presented this five year plan to me and they never once asked me like what do you want in five years? Or what do you envision for your life? Or how do you want it to feel and that was a really big red flag for me and kind of this like first like pain of like, Am I in the right place like this? Sounds really impressive. This sounds good but doesn't feel right. And in the book I talk a lot about like Have these micro actions like tiny actions, and I think that there are a lot of times to different people, there's like the jump, and then the net will appear. And then there's the people that are like, I'm gonna leave this net so that I know with security and safety, I can make the leap. And I am in the latter camp, I am not someone that is very big risk taker in big decisions like that. And so for me, I had to really take some time to be able to think about, okay, I know what I don't want. And I'm not exactly sure what I do want, but I know what feels better to me. And I think a lot of times, we are so lost when it comes to like, what is the big vision? Like I don't, I can't even think about what I'm going to eat for dinner. How do I know what I want for my life. But for me, sometimes learning what I don't want or what I will not take, or what I don't feel is in alignment with me is a better indicator of how I can start moving in the right direction. And so there's this line in the book where it talks about like, I felt like I was writing to Clydesdales going in opposite directions because the life I was living, did not showcase like what I really wanted, what my values were, what I was heading towards. And in order to figure out how to jump from one horse to the other, I had to just take these micro actions and start working towards that vision of something else.
Allison: 06:15
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction or mental health issues, we encourage you to reach out to us today. Advanced Recovery Systems is a leading behavioral health care company with locations across this country. Don't hesitate, call us today, at 855-409-1753. That's 855-409-1753 help is just a phone call away. Well, it's so powerful because those tiny habits add up, they stack up over time, and then you do have more confidence, right and your ability to make a change or, you know, pivot and one of the concepts that you also talked about that I loved and I loved the phrase that you use when it was around identity foreclosure. Yes. feeling stuck, right. I think there's so many people that can relate to that right now, whether they feel stuck, where they don't belong, whether they feel like they need to evolve, but they're not quite there yet, or they're not really sure what to do next. So can we talk about that concept, too, because I think it's sometimes easier to stay stuck, because it's a safer choice. But as you discussed throughout the whole book, is this permission to evolve concept.
Jenna Kutcher 07:25
Yeah.
Allison: 07:26
So, can we go into that a little further?
Jenna Kutcher 07:27
Oh, absolutely. So I had an incredible guest on my podcast, Dr. Maya Shankar, who introduced me to this notion of identity foreclosure. And basically what it means is, have you ever held on to like a pair of jeans that no longer fit you, but you've invested in them? And you're like, maybe someday, or, you know, I know so many people who they start the degree for the dream job and halfway through the degree, they they know that they don't want that job anymore. But they feel like they've already spent two years why would they waste that? And it's like, Wait, we're wasting our future, knowing we're moving in a direction that's not going to serve us. And so for me, what's been so fascinating, is kind of working through this process of figuring out who am I but not just who am I today, but who do I want to become? And I think a lot of times we put so much pressure on like what sounds impressive what sounds good. Instead of saying like, what feels good in my life, like, how do I want to feel? And so for me, as I was navigating out of corporate world and into this new roles and entrepreneurial, I'm a first generation entrepreneur, I had no entrepreneur examples in my life, I had to really figure out like, where is my worth based? And how do I really make sure that what I'm building isn't just another ladder to climb, there's this this line in the book where it's like, I quit the job. But I didn't quit the game. Like I just started building my own ladders. And it's really easy for us to get out of alignment. And so with identity for closure, one thing that I want to encourage your listeners is to recognize that like, our identities aren't fixed. We are constantly changing and growing and evolving. And I want us to continue becoming, I want us to be able to say, you know, I said I would never write a book. And now I wrote when I said I didn't want to be a mom and I changed my mind and change minds, I think is like one of the most beautiful things that we can gift ourselves and in doing that, invite other people to maybe consider different things so that we can continue changing our identities as we should as students in this thing called Life School. And as people who can have their mind changed and become something different.
Allison: 09:33
And we have to give ourselves that permission slip as you talked about, right? It's giving us the grace to not have it all figured out to not be perfect at it to shed other people's opinions along the way. And I'm I can totally relate with this identity foreclosure situation. I went to law school because I thought it was the next best thing to do. And then I knew like in my gut that this was not where I was supposed to be. But I am so stubborn. Arne Yeah, and I'm like, nope, gotta finish it. Even though this is making me absolutely miserable. Yes.
Jenna Kutcher 10:05
Do that don't wait, isn't that funny? See, and so crazy.
Allison: 10:10
We get in our own ways more than anything else. It's crazy. But I really wanted to spend the majority of our time today you talk about burnout a lot. And I think that this is such an important conversation to have. I've had amazing guests on and we've had the chance to explore this further. But, you know, I don't think that we've seen the end of it by any means. And I think that there's a lot of folks that are still not sure what they're feeling, but they know they're not feeling right. So can we talk about burnout a little bit more what you're seeing and why this has become such a theme that you'd like to discuss and dive into?
Jenna Kutcher 10:46
Yeah, you know, I was at this conference one time. And I still see this theme. So often, where the really successful people have these stories where they drive themselves into the ground, they hustle, hustle, hustle, they hit burnout. And then somehow in some way, a breakthrough comes in. I remember hearing people tell these stories at this conference. And it was like every story was the same. It was like we were all working off of the same story arc. And it really caused me to pause and be like, is the burnout required for the breakthrough. And being a mom to a toddler, I've learned that you can tell a kid stove is hot, but sometimes they need to touch it to experience it. And I think that a lot of people are that way, they have to experience something to really know that they don't want to do that again. But I think that the way that we are perpetuating this hustle mentality, it is only going to lead us there. And we have become people who have tuned out those check engine lights so long that something has to suffer for us to wake up to the fact that we're not doing something that's sustainable, whether it's relational or health related. And for me, I've had a lot of burnout moments when I've recognized that the dream that I'm working towards, or the goal that I'm working towards, doesn't feel good. It's like have you Alison, like ever had this goal or this dream, and you land it and you're like, I thought this would feel different, or I thought it would feel better, or I thought I would feel more proud. It's the worst, right? Because you're like, I just spent all this time working on this. Maybe it wasn't right or meant for me. And so one of the things that I think is really important, is to talk about boundaries. I feel like balance was the word for a long time. And I feel like boundaries is the new word. But I think it's really a well intentioned word that a lot of us need to adopt. Because so many of us specifically women, you mentioned, you're a stubborn woman, you obviously are brilliant. A lot of us are yes girls, right? Like we're taught to like make everyone feel comfortable, like apologize like all of these things. And boundaries to us have felt like this method of keeping people or things out of our lives, whether it's opportunities, or jobs or things like that. But boundaries to me have been my saving grace, they have been the thing that has kept me in my life. And what I mean by that is, if I say that my values are this one thing, but I'm saying yes to everything else, while I'm saying no to the thing that I'm telling the world means the most to me. And so, when we think about burnout, what I want to come coupling alongside of that is boundaries, and how can we invite them into our lives, to really preserve our lives so that the lives that we're living feel good, but that we're enjoying them that we're not faking to enjoy them, or that we're not spinning the whole journey in pursuit of the thing, missing the point.
Allison: 13:29
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Jenna Kutcher 16:00
Having energy and what I mean by that is, I feel like I'm stretched thin in the best way because I love being a mom so much. And I also love the work I do. I often visualize almost like this thin veil with like two balls of things that I love so much. And it's just kind of moving back and forth. And it's heavy. Because the weight of like, all of the love that I have is a lot. But I'm really just figuring out how do we blend? How do we integrate? How do we live without those regrets that I missed this opportunity, or I missed this time. And so just really being fully awake to like the fullness of life right now. Because I feel like I am literally in the thick of it. And I want to not miss it. And so that's like where I'm at these days. And so even today, it was like I did all of our morning stuff got Coco off to school. And as soon as she's home at noon, I'm done. And I'm with her and we're going to the park. And so it's like, how can we integrate all the things that we say that matter so that it is so obvious when I look at my day to day life, that that's my priority.
Allison: 17:04
And I think you're a beautiful example, Jenna, the fact that you can live your life with intention and purpose and make a massive difference in the world. And so I am so honored to have been able to share space with you today. My last question, though, is like you've got a network of people that you have connected with and collaborate with that have been just a big part of your journey. Yeah, who else should we be following? Or watching or subscribing to or reading? What else do you recommend?
Jenna Kutcher 17:31
Ooh, I love this. This is so good. So Brendon Burchard has been a very pivotal person in my life. And he's so great at the personal development stuff. And I actually avoided that for a very long time, because strategy can get you really far. But when you really start to invest in who you are, and who you're becoming, as a human being, that's when things really skyrocket. So I would say him, I would say Amy Porterfield. If you are in the business space, She is like my business best friend. We were literally voice noting this morning sharing about her day, I feel like she's my co worker in this space. And I think if you don't have community in that way, find ways to invite it because it can be a really lonely journey, no matter what you're doing when you don't have somebody who's in that similar life stage. And then the third person that I would say would be Jamie Kern Lima, founder of a cosmetics freakin badass billion dollar company, but best heart of hearts. And she is just an incredible voice of confidence and hard work. But also kind of the whole journey of all of that.
Allison: 18:37
We'll all three of them are fabulous. And it was so funny. You said Brendan and here. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I love Jamie's believe it was fabulous. And we're big fans, and we are huge fans of yours, too. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show today. If you are listening, I want you to go out immediately and pick up a copy of Jenna's new book. How are you really It is fabulous. And I just feel so blessed to have the chance to have gotten a sneak peek and to spend time with you. So everything and we're for you.
Jenna Kutcher 19:08
Thank you so much. And I just want to give you a massive shout out. Allison, thank you for the work that you do. I think it's so easy when we show up in these capacities and with audiences to forget about the power of one of changing one life of serving one person and just thank you for being a part of my community. But thank you for the work that you do. I just want to remind you that in this pursuit, it matters. And the ripple effects will be felt for years and decades to come. And so I just want you to remember that today to
Allison: 19:38
well thank you so much, Jenna, I appreciate you.
Angela: 19:44
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribed, we hope you join us regularly. And please leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts if you enjoyed the show. We hope that this podcast is beneficial to you and your wellness journey. Dear mind you matter is brought to you by Nobu a new mental health and wellness app you can download it today using the link in our show notes we will talk to you next time and until then remember you and your mind matter