In this episode, we talk to Dr. Margaret Rutherford about perfectly hidden depression, destructive perfectionism and self acceptance.
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Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist, has practiced for twenty-eight years in Fayetteville, Arkansas. After winning an Arkansas Psychological Association award in 2009 for her community volunteering, she began blogging in 2012, and podcasting in 2016, extending the walls of her practice so that the general public could hear more about what therapy has to offer. Her writing can be found at https://DrMargaretRutherford.com, as well as Psychology Today, Psych Central, Psyche, the Gottman Blog and others. She hosts a highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, which is consistently ranked in the top 50 of US mental health podcasts, and a monthly FBLive presentation for The Mighty. Her new book Perfectly Hidden Depression (New Harbinger, 2019) focuses a much-needed light on the dangerous link between destructive perfectionism and depression.
Website: https://drmargaretrutherford.com
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-selfwork-podcast/id1166015598
Book on Amazon: Author of Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free From the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression
Memorable Moments:
5:49 But there's a thing called destructive perfectionism, which is all about accomplishment, task, task orientation. You constantly have to meet the expectations of others around you. And I mean, all expectations.
6:13 That kind of perfectionism actually can be a camouflage for emotional pain that actually you may have suppressed that pain for so long that you're not even conscious of it anymore.
11:56 If you're aware that when perfectionism is present, when some of these, what I call the 10 traits of perfectly hidden depression, when those things are present, it's a syndrome of behaviors and beliefs that [hang] together.
13:07 People with high functioning depression know they're depressed. They know they're depressed. They're in treatment, they're on medication. They make sure they get lots of exercise, so they don't get sad. They have seasonal affective disorder. They've learned how to cope. They're not so depressed that they can't get to work or take care of their kids. But this is different.
13:30 This is truly something that is...camouflage. You know, it's something you, you strap on every day and you really don't do it consciously. It's just who you have become. And the wonderful, incredible work that these people can do in therapy when they begin to let down that camouflage, it is amazing and it takes a lot of courage.
15:54 To convince someone that their thinness is really about an eating disorder is very difficult because that eating disorder has become their best friend. Perfectionism is very much the same way.
18:03 It is hard to admit that something you counted on as much as, you know, you being the person who's always the go-to, who always gets things done. And to begin to shift that thinking into something that's a little more human is hard. And so it takes a lot of honesty with yourself.
20:14 There could have been something that was in their family environment, in their cultural environment that caused them to adapt this way. And the very thing that helped them live through that and survive that is the thing that now has grown into this. And it's become their task master.
23:26 You really want to look at the absolutes in your life, the rules you're following: the musts, the shoulds, the have tos, the aughts, the nevers and begin to say, well, which one of these does still work for me, but which does not?
23:51 There's that work that's more cognitive behavioral and then there's the work of really going back and looking at your childhood, the family, the culture, the region, whatever, the country, and to see how the events of your life, both good and beneficial and painful and harmful, began to form patterns in your behavior. Going back and acknowledging with compassion.
23:53 What is it that was hard for me and that I began covering up by just being highly achieving and caring about others and focusing on others, not on myself and counting my blessings to the point where it's toxic? You know, there's a toxic positivity that's out there.
25:54 These steps, they're hard because it really does turn some of what you believe upside down. But I have had people say to me, I, I feel so much more free than I did before.
26:00 To me, self-acceptance is really claiming that your strengths nor your vulnerabilities define you, that they both exist and they are facts about your life. And neither one of them define you. I think that's where people, in fact, I say in the book, self acceptance is the antidote to perfectly hidden depression.
27:17 During the pandemic people have used the strategy that has best worked for them [in the past] as their lives have gotten more and more ambiguous, more out of control, financial issues, obviously health issues, fear for your children, fear for your parents or grandparents, you know, our environment. I mean, it's just been chaos.
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Ashley Tate, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Allison: Hello and welcome to the Dear Mind, You Matter Podcast. My name is Allison Walsh, I am a long time mental health advocate and Vice President at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show along with our mental health and wellness app Nobu, are just some of the ways we are working to provide you with some actionable tips to take really good care of yourself each and every day.
So sit back, relax, and grab your favorite note taking device. It's time to fill your mind with things that matter.
Okay, well, Dr. Margaret, thank you so much for being on the show today. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about yourself with our audience?
Dr. Rutherford: Of course I'd love to and thank you so much. I'm honored actually. Well, I have not had the most traditional path to becoming a clinical psychologist. I've been a psychologist now for almost 30 years, but I was actually a jingle singer in my twenties.
I sang radio and television commercials in Dallas, and then I had a little I had a group that sang at night and, and did that for eight or nine years, something like that. And then I had started volunteering at the battered women's shelter in Dallas, and I loved it and I really was ready for a change performing, maybe sounding kind of sexy and all that stuff.
But living that life is really difficult. So I transferred my energies into getting a degree in music therapy. Which led me into an internship at a psych hospital and I thought, oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is what I want to do. So I actually had to go back and get psychology hours. Cause I didn't even have a degree in psychology.
And I almost said, I auditioned, I interviewed with the University of Texas Southwestern medical school and lo and behold, I think maybe out of curiosity, they let me in. So yeah, it's been an.. and then, you know, so I did that and then I’ve been a psychologist and now I'm an author and podcaster and so. I'm just really, I mean, so far the ride has been great so far.
Angela: That is amazing. Dr. Margaret, I think we have more in common than we realize this is going to be fun.
Dr. Rutherford: Good!
Angela: I am very excited to have you on because as someone who's sort of overlaps since the area, the sort of what we're going to be talking to you about a lot today. I think it's very interesting sort of the work that you've been doing.
I've, I can't say that I've fully read your book yet. I'm getting into it, but I am so passionate about sort of a lot of what you talk about in relation to hiding depression and really what you refer to as sort of the concept of perfectly hidden depression and it's linked with destructive perfectionism.
I'm really going to jump into this because we never have enough time with people and I really want to pick your brains. So can you tell us more about this concept and really kind of digging into how that differentiates and sort of this whole realm of depression? Sort of what you've seen, where your work has really lied in that area.
Dr. Rutherford: You know, I want to say first and foremost, I never wanted to write a book. I had no plans to write a book. I love being a therapist and I was just fine seeing people. But I wrote a post for my blog called ‘The Perfectly Hidden Depressed Person or You One?’ back in April of 2014. And I was shocked and I was just really talking about some people that I had seen as patients who, when they walked in my door did not. They would in fact deny that they were depressed.
Oh, I'm not depressed. I've got a great life. I'm just here because I'm a little anxious or I'm here because I'm struggling with eating or something. But I wrote that post and I was shocked to find that it went viral and I never had a post go viral before.
And I was writing for the HuffPost at the time and they featured it and I got hundreds of emails, in 24 hours, this is me. It's like you're inside my head. So. To make a longer story shorter. I spent the next two or three years really researching what's out there about perfectionism and when it becomes destructive and I found Doctor Brene Brown's work. Of course it's wonderful.
I found Terrence Real's work, “I Don't Want to Talk About It’, but I didn't find anything that was stressing that a certain kind of perfectionism, not just striving for excellence. It's, that's, that's a great kind of perfectionism. That's focused on process and it's fueled by curiosity and generosity and creativity. But there's a thing called destructive perfectionism, which is all about accomplishment, task, task orientation. You constantly have to meet the expectations of others around you. And I mean, all expectations.
And, but what I could not find in the popular literature was any kind of a reference to the idea that that kind of perfectionism actually can be a camouflage for emotional pain that actually you may have suppressed that pain for so long that you're not even conscious of it anymore.
You know, when you're two or three and you're in an abusive home or neglectful home, or you're told to go to your room until you can be happy or you're the star of the family and you must accomplish, accomplish, accomplish all that emotional vulnerability just gets hidden and it stays silent and you can do that so habitually that actually by the time you're 30 or however old you are, you just say, oh no, I'm just a happy person. You know, if I started crying, I'd probably never stop, but I don't want to do that. And you've got this big smile on your face all the time. And if I asked you if you were depressed, no, no, I'm not depressed.
So what I learned from that, was that, that kind of camouflage can become heavier and heavier and heavier because you are lonely, you are despairing and only at very quiet times, does it begin to come into your consciousness that that's what's going on.
And, and the, the tragedy of it is that as perfectionism rates go up, internationally, so do suicide rates and we're having, in fact, I bet everybody listening to this knows someone who died by suicide, who died by their own hand, who everyone went, what? I just saw her two weeks ago, she looked great. Or, you know, he was my son's soccer coach or, and he was always so bright and so happy and so caring about the kids.
And it's this, it's a highly perplexing kind of issue until you realize that these people have been silent for a long time about what's really going on and they do not know how to express their vulnerability. That was a very long answer. So I hope that was okay.
Allison: A very powerful one and I'm sure there are so many people listening, going, wow, I can relate with. Again, I think the term camouflage really resonated with me with what you were saying, because you don't necessarily see it. You see all the positive and you're like, no, this couldn't possibly be destructive, but over time how destructive it truly can be.
So, you know, I know you mentioned just the increase in, you know, when you see more of this, of course, then you also see the increase in suicide. Why do you think the, or how do you think the mental health field has really kind of overlooking the dangerous presentation of this because it's getting missed. Right.
And so what's happening here?
Dr. Rutherford: Yes. Yes. What is happening is that we have become very operational in mental health and when someone walks in our office, we have these criteria that must be met for depression to be diagnosed. And if I took that classic list of, of symptoms, people with perfectly hidden depression or who experienced lifelike that do not meet criteria.
The two major criteria are a depressed mood that is evident to either the person or the person's family or friends or workplace. And so it's a noticeable change in functioning from the way they normally function. And the second criteria is what's called anhedonia, which is the lack of pleasure in previously pleasuring.
It's hard to say the lack of pleasure in previously pleasurable activities. And so, you know, someone walks in your door and they're smiling. They kind of go, I don't know really why I'm here, but I've heard you're a good therapist. And I thought maybe you and I could talk about some things and you're smiling.
And, and this actually happened. I asked this patient if there had been any sexual abuse and she said, oh no, no. And the second session she came back and she said, well, you know, you asked me about sexual abuse. And again, smiling. You know, I was raped before I went to college and I just, I don't even think about it anymore.
I didn't even tell anybody and it was such a long time ago. I don't think it matters. And I, you know, I have to look at her and say, did you hear what you just said? That being raped doesn't matter. And, and to them, it's has been so compartmentalized. It's been so pushed away. So repressed that it truly is not a big deal to them because they don't know how to let it be a big deal. They're so afraid of expressing that vulnerability. They need to stay in control.
Angela: Absolutely. And what a powerful example. I actually remember you mentioning that in another interview and I just sat back and I was thinking to myself too, others that I've worked with, how many parallels of so many repeated stories that are similar.
And then, like you said, if, if you were to just turn down your audio and watch you, I think you said you would look like you were talking about a great time you had last night or ordering lunch does that sound congruent to you?
Dr. Rutherford: And I will say in clinician's defense, they will say, well, if someone doesn't tell me what's wrong, then how am I, I don't have a crystal ball.
And my answer to that is exactly what I said in the book. The answer to that is if you're aware, that when perfectionism is present, when some of these, what I call the 10 traits of perfectly hidden depression, when those things are present, it's a syndrome of behaviors and beliefs that hanging together.
It's not a diagnosis. Then you can think outside the box, you can think isn't this person, their lives are a little too perfect or you know, they're there, they seemingly really can't express or not able to talk about painful emotion at all. They just kind of lighten it up and discount it or even deny it.
So you're so right, Angela. I think there are a lot of our patients who are like this. Now, let me make a quick differentiation. There's a thing called high functioning depression or smiling depression that has been written about a lot. Especially on things like websites like The Mighty and people who really are talking about some of their, you know, really trying to explain what's going on with them.
I think someone who has high functioning depression would hear about perfectly hidden depression, a say that's me and I get that in many ways, it is, but this is the difference. People with high functioning depression know they're depressed. They know they're depressed. They're in treatment, they're on medication. They make sure they get lots of exercise, so they don't get sad. They have seasonal affective disorder. They've learned how to cope. They're not so depressed that they can't get to work or take care of their kids. But this is different.
This is truly something that is again, I'll use the word, Alison, that you like that camouflage, that it becomes, it is..You know, it's something you, you strap on every day and you really don't do it consciously. It's just who you have become. And the wonderful, incredible work that these people can do in therapy when they begin to let down that camouflage. It is amazing and it takes a lot of courage.
It takes, you're very afraid when you're dealing with this, that you'll lose your job, you'll lose your status, you'll lose who people think you are. If you admit to being overwhelmed or fatigued or bored or whatever you are, that if you really allow yourself to begin to be more transparent that, you know, your world will crumble.
Angela: Absolutely. I'm really glad that you also pointed out that differentiation between high-functioning depression.
I was actually talking with some colleagues the other day and one of the things, and you also bring this up is, you know, because in psychology psychiatry, we do have this tendency to utilize a lot of standardized measures and scales at nauseum. Right.
Dr. Rutherford: Right.
Angela: There is such a, you know, it's such a challenge then to be able to give people the language that they need, which I think you speak to so much.
And I want to hear a little bit more about this and in terms of how you would give them these tools and help us sort of look inside and see how we can better equip ourselves and those who want to help us right. With, with more of these symptoms or, you know, the terminology around what we're actually experiencing, that doesn't seem to, you know, hit the notes of when you go in and you talk to a psychiatrist or you go in and you're being assessed by a psychologist.
What they're asking you, doesn't, doesn't hit that note for you. Don't relate to that. Right. And so we know you've written a lot about this and don't want to be a spoiler for your book, but can you give us a little bit more in terms of how we can help ourselves and others around us to really identify whether or not this is something that we're going through?
Dr. Rutherford: Sure, I'd be more than happy to do that. The interesting thing about perfectionism there, it's sort of like an eating disorder, you know. To convince someone that their thinness is really about an eating disorder is very difficult because that eating disorder has become their best friend. Perfectionism is very much the same way.
Perfectionism and having taking lots of responsibility and being in emotional control and you know, focusing on other people, there is so easy to convince yourself, well, there's nothing. What is she saying? There's something wrong with me being, you know, going the extra mile and being a nice person and working hard, working diligently. I don't see anything wrong with that. And so the first step is literally to say, but wait a minute, you know, who actually knows me? Maybe even my partner doesn't know me, who do I let in? You know, I had. As I wrote about this guys and tried to think about what is this thing, I would ask for people to volunteer and to please talk with me and to email me.
And I was amazed in about three months, I had 70 to 75 people reach out. I had to filter out some of those, but I did 60 interviews. Hour and a half, two hour interviews with all those people over about a six month period of time. And what they all told me when I asked, well, why would you take a risk? You know, you're in your garage so no one knows you're talking to me, you're locked in your office. So nobody knows you’re talking to me about your perfectionism and about your pain. And I said, why would you risk contacting someone that you've just read a blog post by and the most common answer was I do not want anyone else to live the life I’ve lived. I have been so lonely and I feel so trapped in this perfect looking prison that I've created and I get suicidal or I've attempted suicide.
So I think that, you know, that is a huge step in this, I don’t like the the word journey, but anyway, in this healing process, It, it is hard to admit that something you counted on as much as, you know, you being the person who's always the go-to, who always gets things done. And to begin to shift that thinking into something that's a little more human is hard. And so it takes a lot of honesty with yourself.
And, and what I hope people are hearing is that they will recognize that they are lonely and that sense of emotional intimacy that they see other people have, that they do not have that.
Allison: So powerful. I mean, everything that you're saying, like the perfect little prison, right? Like this is, I've heard people use similar references of like, okay from the outside, looking in, everything looks amazing, but on the inside, it's the loneliest place you'd ever want to be. So I'm sure there's a lot of people that right now are saying, oh my gosh, you nailed it. You totally identified what we've been feeling for so long.
Dr. Rutherford: So I, Alison I, you know, I have been I mean, you know, I'm sure every author, whoever writes a book believes their book is important or you wouldn't have had all the angst that we use probably in your life to write it. But you know, this particular message was so important to me to be, to, to get out there. And I'm still trying.
And, and I, so thank you for, you know, you invited me on and so your listeners can hear about this because it's a little, it's tricky. It's tricky to, to realize that there are paths out. My book does have 60 exercises in it that are meant to take someone very slowly and carefully from sort of this begrudging curiosity about, okay, let me read this a little bit. And so, you know because it is almost shocking to these people, that there could have been something that was in their family environment, in their cultural environment that caused them to adapt this way. And the very thing that helped them live through that and survive that is the thing that now has grown into this. And it's become their task master.
Angela: Absolutely, and one of the things I'm curious to get a little bit more info from you since you've done so much work with others on this specific topic is, you know, we work with a variety of folks.
You know, across gender, occupation, and of course, I'm curious about if there are any trends there that you've seen. Cause it does hit a lot of notes when I start thinking about people that are in certain positions or roles, but I also don't want to discount to that discussion around, you know, a lot of people only think of pointing out that women have a really difficult challenge with this.
But for example, when we think about, and Allison and I work a lot directly with, you know, firefighters, first responders, people who are in the, you know, the medical world who are functioning again, very different levels. But this really rings a lot of bells in that area too.
So just, can you speak to any, anything you've learned about sort of that gender component or occupational trends differences there?
Dr. Rutherford: Sure. You know, I'm a clinician, not a researcher, so I haven't researched this myself, but you know, most of the research and perfectionism does show that women tend to, they tend to rate themselves as more perfectionistic than men do.
However, my clinical experience has been that I've my, my own private practice has attracted just as many men to talk to me about this as women. And so, and again, and I think ethnicity is of course so important and there are cultures that, I mean, being men in a certain culture is being male.
You're not supposed to be vulnerable at all and certainly in families. And so in fact, one of my African-American patients said she was reading the book and she said, Margaret, you know, in my family, if, if I wouldn't have gotten the opportunities that I did, if I, weren't not only perfect, but better than everybody else.
And you're asking me to consider that as something that is self destructive now, and I said, yeah, I am.
And she said, but you know, it's so hard because it's so built into, I'm the generation that's supposed to do better than any other generation before me. And she said, I, I I've lived my life that way for 35 years. And I said, I know. And so let's just tweak it. You don't have to throw away the, what was that old saying? The baby with the bath water, something you know, just, just say, okay, what, what works for me?
In fact, the book talks a lot about the things that the actual stages of treatment. One of them being that you really want to look at the absolutes in your life, the rules you're following: the musts, the shoulds, the have tos, the aughts, the nevers and begin to say, well, which one of these does still work for me, but which does not?
Or I'm uncomfortable with thinking about changing it.Well, why are you uncomfortable? You know, what's going on, that would make you uncomfortable?
There's that work that's more cognitive behavioral and then there's the work of really going back and looking at your childhood, the family, the culture, the region, whatever, the country, and to see how the events of your life, both good and beneficial and painful and harmful, began to form patterns in your behavior. Going back and acknowledging with compassion. Yes, this happened to me when I was three or yes, this happened to me when I was seven or whatever. And it was some good things and some harmful things. I'm so much more comfortable in remembering the good things. And what, what, how could I begin to honor and acknowledge the pain that was caused me by a grandfather or, being bullied or you know, having eight different schools and nine years, I mean, what is it that was hard for me and that I began covering up by just being highly achieving and caring about others and focusing on others, not on myself and counting my blessings to the point where it's toxic. You know, there's a toxic positivity that's out there.
Dr. Susan David talks a lot about that and she calls it a tyranny of positivity in fact. Anyway, these steps they're hard because it really does turn some of what you believe upside down. But I have had people say to me, I, I feel so much more free than I did before.
You know, my personal definition of self-acceptance, which I've had to work hard on cause I've really, I, I made a lot of mistakes in my life, especially when I was doing that singing thing. Ooh, that was not good. And so, you know, to me, self-acceptance is really claiming that your strengths nor your vulnerabilities define you, that they both exist and they are facts about your life.
And neither one of them define you and I think that's where people, in fact, I say in the book, self acceptance is the antidote to perfectly hidden depression.
Allison: Wow. I love that. So that's really powerful. So many things that you've offered nuggets of wisdom throughout this entire episode. I am curious if you've seen any impact of the pandemic on individuals that are struggling with this.
Dr. Rutherford: Oh yeah. You know, we all get out the strategy that we use the most when it comes to increased stress. Even if I learned a new skill, the example I like to use my patients is that, you know, if I was really great with a knife, now, let's say if I was really great with a bow and arrow, but I just worked on my knife skills and if a bear came roaring after me, the knife might be better, but I'm going to pull out my bow and arrow. Right. Because that's what I've counted on for years.
During the pandemic people have used the strategy that has best worked for them as their lives have gotten more and more ambiguous, more out of control, financial issues, obviously health issues, fear for your children, fear for your parents or grandparents, you know, our environment. I mean, it's just been chaos. And so my guess is, and my concern for these people that I've written this book for, you know, is that they got out there. Well, now I've got to be uber perfectionist. I'm going to be the person that checks on my neighbors constantly.
I'm going to be the person that, you know, is volunteering at the school I'm going to be taking. I mean, none of that is bad. It's just how, when and how do you check in with yourself? And when you sometimes say I'm too tired to do that or I need to focus on how this is affecting me. You know, I've given this talk to therapists and a lot of therapists will say, oh, well, hmm.
So, you know, serving professions, as you say, the first responders. In fact, I've had people reach out to me on my own podcast, who are veterinarians, who are doctors, who are, I haven't done police officers, although I've talked to several. Let me see who else dentists, you know, it's like, there's a certain, certain professions where you, you are trained to, to not respond emotionally.
You're trying to do that. And so, you know, trying to shift between doing that professionally and then shifting into a different way of being personally, that's tough.
Angela: Yeah. What a combination, right. For continuing to just dismiss what's going on with us. Right. And then, like you said, add the pandemic to that.
And that's a whole other level of just pushing drudging through and really not taking that time. I do know, you know, on the flip side of that, I hope, you know, first of all, that this has given our, our listeners and us a lot to think about and that we can take that time to reflect. And I do know, you know, some people have had the opportunity to do that, but I think you're right.
And especially for the folks who've really hit that frontline hard. Right? Like they've made that their mission. And that is such a core component of their identity, right. Has been throughout the pandemic, but even more so, you know, as they're building that muscle and, and then now trying to pivot things as we move through it.
So I think, again, this is just a lot for, for everyone to take in and really think about it so.
Dr. Rutherford: You know, some of my friends would say, Hey Margaret, you know, are you disappointed that this isn't you know, your book? Wasn't , although I did reach number one and suicide, but I said, you know, it's not a bestseller.
And I said, you know, no, I never thought it would be that way. I would have been absolutely flabbergasted, if that had happened because of the population I'm trying to reach, you know, this is kind of a trickle, and it's, oh, I know somebody who needs to read this. Oh, I need, you know, and so, and that is exactly what has happened.
My publishing company has said, you know, we don't quite get this, but we're interested in the second book because your book is selling. It's just kind of selling. You know, it's not gathering speed, but it's not slowing down either. Which kind is what I predicted.
Allison: And I'm sure now that you know, people are out looking, I think that's the one good thing about the pandemic is that people are actually willing to try to get help more so than they were before.
So I'm hopeful that those listening today that are resonating with this, or know somebody that this sounds like them, will pick up a copy of your book, because it's going to be very, very, very helpful. And Dr. Margaret one of our favorite questions and we get to ask this of all of our guests that come on our show is at this point in your life, what matters to you most right now?
Dr. Rutherford: Personally?
Allison: Anything
Dr. Rutherford: Anything, well, professionally, it's obviously this message because I've spent now how many years, seven years on this topic. You know, I'm 67 years old and so personally what matters to me the most is to live my life with meaning and to be a good friend, to be a good wife, to be a good mother.
And to what I like about being 67 years old is that I really get to use so much of what I've learned and I'm still learning. I'm still curious. So. You know, I, I want to stay curious. I want to try to help other people remain curious and to do whatever healing they need to do. And I, and I heal along with them.
Angela: I love that so much. What is the saying? The more you learn, the more you, the more, you know, the more you realize you don't know. Right. So I love it so much. So thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Margaret, can you share with our listeners how we can follow you either on social media or find you anywhere else?
Dr. Rutherford: I have the very creative name on my website of drmargaretrutherford.com and my email is askdrmargaret@drmargaretweatherford. My podcast is called ‘The Self Work Podcast’ and it's everywhere you listen to Spotify, apple, whatever. And of course you can just, I have a Facebook closed group at facebook.com/groups/self work.
That's kind of fun. I'm very accessible. So I really do try to respond to people as best I can when they reach out and it's one of my favorite things about this thing that I never thought I would do. The book and the podcast is, I get to know people from all over the world and I've gotten to know y'all.
And so, you know, that is just so special to me. It's like all of a sudden my, you know, my world is bigger. It's kind of cool.
Allison: Yeah. We love that too.
Dr. Rutherford: Isn't great?
Angela: So special yes! Thank you so much. We just appreciate all the work that you're doing and thanks again.
Dr. Rutherford: You're more than welcome, again, it's my honor to be here and y'all have a, I listened to your podcast and you really have a great style and so you're going to do very well.
Angela: Thank you so much.
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