In this episode, we talk to fire wives Audra and Chelsi of the Dear Chiefs podcast about how to stay married when your spouse is a first responder and communication tips that could help any partnership thrive.
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Chelsi and Audra are two fire wives hosting no BS convos about loving and supporting first responders. Their podcast is called Dear Chiefs and can be found at @dearchiefspodcast
Memorable Moments:
7:38 What we've discovered through just recording Dear Chiefs is that there is a significant difference between station life and home life.
7:43 A lot of people think that they are leaving their work at home when really they're bringing it with them home to the family.
8:02 So they may be keeping in all their emotions and all of these things going on outside of home. But when they come home, it's "safe" to let all those emotions out. And so I think that's why we see firefighters, first responders coming home grouchy because this is a safe place to let that all go.
And so I think commonly that's what we're hearing the most of is overtimes a problem and they're coming home being a completely different person than they are at the station.
12:43 For me, I think Audra agrees with this, finding support, knowing who you can go to for support, knowing if you have an employee assistance program, knowing how to access the employee assistance program, actually accessing it, going to counseling. These are things that we've both done and our relationships that we are big, big proponents of. If you don't know if you have an employee assistance program, go ask someone and don't hesitate to use it. That's what it's there for.
13:25 My number one thing is when you need help, know where to find it.
13:57 We really are trying to break the stigma of going to counseling and how necessary it is, and really finding support and finding somebody to help you.
14:06 When you enter into marriage, you don't know what is going to happen. You have this crazy idea in your mind, but it's very rare that it actually comes true. You know, the fairytale Disney story is not reality.
15:33 First, the first rule of being married is to communicate with each other. Right. You have to be open and honest and, you know I think we've said it before, kind, compassionate, and curious.
18:30 Within the structure of the family, I think it's really important, we call it the handoff when he comes home from work. I tell him, "this is what we have planned this week. This is what's going on. What are your plans? What are you thinking? What do you want to do?" And so then there's no miscommunication over what his plans were or what my plans were or what the kids are doing or, or anything like that.
18:56 I also prep my children for when he comes home. If I know there's been, you know, he's been gone for a long time or there's been a bad call, or there's been a line of duty death or something, something that I know is going to impact him, I sit my kids down before he comes home and say, "Hey, dad kind of had a rough week at work. Let's give him some grace." So we're constantly having those conversations in our home.
20:05 It can be, "Hey, we're going to set aside 30 minutes every night. When the kids go to bed and have a chat." We do it when he's not at work. We get our five minutes in...[if] we're not setting aside the time to communicate, we're not going to do it. Nobody wants to sit down and have tough conversations. It's just not a thing. As a human, I don't want to be uncomfortable. But it's necessary because that's where the growth happens.
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This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Ashley Tate, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you’re interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.
Allison: Hello and welcome to the Dear Mind, You Matter Podcast. My name is Allison Walsh, I am a long time mental health advocate and Vice President at Advanced Recovery Systems. On each episode I will be joined by my colleague and clinical expert, Dr. Angela Phillips. This show along with our mental health and wellness app Nobu, are just some of the ways we are working to provide you with some actionable tips to take really good care of yourself each and every day.
So sit back, relax, and grab your favorite note taking device. It's time to fill your mind with things that matter.
Angela: Audra and Chelsi are the creators of the Dear Chiefs podcast. They are two fire wives hosting, no BS conversations about loving and supporting first responders.
Allison: Thank you so much for coming on our show today. Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience?
Audra: Okay, I'll go first. I am Audra. My husband is a firefighter. He's been in this career now for, going on his 14th year with the city that he said, and then he was with Cal fire for two years, it used to be CDF back in the days, and it's been crazy, you know being married to a first responder, especially right now is absolutely insane. You know, it has its definite perks, but it's been a challenge the last couple of years and I mean, realistically, it's been a challenge for the last 20 years. We'll be married 19 years next week. So it's, it's a
Angela: Nice, congrats.
Audra: Thank you. I know it's very exciting. So it feels good to, you know, still be married in this industry. I think that's one of the reasons why we started the podcast because the divorce rate is crazy. We want to try to combat that as much as possible and try to help other people. That's our goal.
Chelsi: So I am Chelsi. Hi everyone. My husband is also a firefighter, but he works for Cal fire, which is a state agency in California.
They do mostly wildlands and so that takes him away from our home often and for long extended periods of time. And there is a very high divorce rate within our department in it of itself. So like Audra I've been married now for almost 14 years, we’ll be celebrating 14 years in January.
My husband and I have always had this like real passion for trying to keep marriages together in our agency specifically and have been disheartened by a lot of the things that we've been seeing, going on for, for many, many years. And so when I met Audra on Instagram, we had that discussion and felt that there was really not a good avenue for couples to find education in how to strengthen their marriages within the fire service. And that's really something for me that I feel we need a lot more of.
And so again, that's why Dear Chiefs exists, you know, to give some people some encouragement and tools in their toolbox.
Allison: I think that's an amazing reason to start. I know that when you, when you identify an issue and you can do something about it and you actually take action and start to make change, you're helping so many people that are tuning in that are listening that are feeling like, wow, I can totally relate to that as well.
You know, so, and I think that's so, so important and you know, the service that your husbands both provide is, is really remarkable. And we have a center that we created for firefighters, right, right outside of Washington, DC. And that started about four and a half, five years ago, going through that process of really building something special.
And through that, we learned just the extreme sacrifice that each firefighter makes on a daily basis and what they're exposed to and what they have to process. Right. And just so many things. And I think so often we take that for granted. So thank you for being so supportive of all firefighters and their families and what they're doing.
It's really, really incredible. So I know we wanted to dig into some experiences and challenges. Angela, you want to go from here?
Angela: Yeah. So, you know, Allison and I are both involved to some degree with, you know, firefighters, first responders and other emergency health care workers. As I know, one of you knows I'm also married to a firefighter as well.I'm a newbie.
Audra: Congrats!
Angela: Thank you. But, you know, you've brought up already a topic that, you know, I don't know why I wasn't thinking about this maybe because I am so new and fresh. But you know, what were other experiences or what are other experiences that you've heard that I know. You've all, you know, both of you and, and you've brought others onto your podcast to sort of shed light on that were common challenges among first responder family members, spouses, partners.
So like, what are you seeing? I know that obviously the divorce rate and really wanting to help strengthen those relationships, but can you share a little bit more about those experiences and what you've heard?
Audra: We actually did a couple of episodes back. We did a survey for spouses and it was really eye opening.
And the funny thing about it was a lot of these spouses, we're so thankful just to be even asked their opinion because you know, agencies don't like to include the spouse and it's a huge issue for, well, for me and Chelsi, it's a huge issue. But I think, you know, I don't think that these industries or these agencies understand the importance of the spouse.
And so just for us to even ask these questions. Everybody was like, oh my God, I've never even considered my opinion valuable. And it is so important for us to get the opinion of the spouse, because they're the ones that see all the crap. And they're the ones that see all of, you know, everything outside and inside.
They see all of it. So when we did the survey, you know, a lot of stuff came up. I think the most repetitive responses we had were really scheduling is a huge issue, you know, for families. That was our most repeated issue was that the scheduling is such a nightmare and we're both in California. So for us, you know, fire seasons insane, especially through COVID and everything has just been just compounding on each other.
Just crazy. So that's a big one for us. I don't know Chels what else , what else, what else do we have?
Chelsi: It's important to know, too. What was really interesting about that, actually in the survey said that was both a hindrance to them and a benefit. So they understand that money is important, but also over time as a hindrance to their relationships.
I think there's a catch 22 going on there. I think a lot of the things that I hear are my spouse or significant other is a different person when they're at the firehouse than when they're at home. They spend more time with their buddies than they do with me. I hear that a lot. I have a, I actually host a group on Facebook for CallFire wives specifically, and this is something that comes up repetitively.
Oh, he's coming home, but he's not the same person he is at the station. He gets along with his coworkers. He's there like his cronies and their friends and they're having fun. And then he comes home and he's a grouch like this happened. This is a common conversation. What we've discovered through just recording Dear Chiefs is that there is a significant difference between station life and home life.
And a lot of people think that they are leaving their work at home when really they're bringing it with them home to the family. I didn't mention when I introduced myself, I'm also a parent. I have three boys, one of which is autistic. And one of the things that we've learned over the years of having an autistic child is that home is the safe place.
So they maybe, they may be keeping it in all their emotions and all of these things going on outside of home. But when they come home its safe to let all those emotions out. And so I think that's why we see firefighters, first responders coming home grouchy because this is a safe place to let that all go.
And so I think commonly that's what we're hearing the most of is overtimes a problem and they're coming home being a completely different person than they are at the station.
Angela: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I, and I just wanted to go back to, to, you know, something that I've heard a lot of in, you know, I've had the pleasure of working with Ben Vernon, who I know, you know, and have had on your book.
And one of the things that he and I have talked about a lot lately, and they're trying to shed more light on as you have in your podcast too, is just giving more support around what it's like to live beyond your means when you're taking that time away from your family. Right. And you are doing, you know, sometimes you don't have a choice and you're mandatory, right, into working that for that time.
But you know, when, when there is that choice and sort of restructuring or re-looking at sort of family finances, or, you know, how you, how you set that sort of plan forward, not only for yourself, but how that impacts your family overall, and then also the financial health and wellbeing of, you know, your children moving forward.
Do they see you, you know, living beyond that mean, and then having to go and work more, more and more overtime or more hours, how that impacts everyone, like the trickle down effect. Right. And how that makes everyone feel, which, you know, when we have bills to pay. We don't think about it, we don't sit back and sort of see that collective impact.
So it just really made me think of sort of that recent conversation I had with Ben. But I love that you've talked about so many different topics that I know are really reaching a lot of people who are in similar situations and struggling. So I'm glad you gave the space to be able to ask spouses.
That's great.
Chelsi: Yeah. I would add to that, like living beyond our means thing, you'd having that cushion. To say, I don't want to take over him today so I'm not going to, I see it so often that guys are like, no, I need three days of overtime this week. So very often, and it really does have a huge impact on the family at home and on your relationships in general, so.
Audra: I mean, my husband and I have a rule, I don't know, Chels has this rule, but we will say like one this month, you know, and we're lucky because we have that option. There's so many departments that do not, and they get mandatory constantly. We are so lucky because we say it all the time. It's not even worth the sanity.
It's not worth your sanity. It's we don't need the money. Let's not do that. You know, we have that luxury. It's unfortunate that there are so many in the position where they don't have that luxury to say, no, I don't need it or no, I'm not taking it because they're forced to.
Chelsi: I think for us, like there’s not really a reason for overtime. So if it's not mandatory, we don't take it because once again, we are blessed enough to not need to do that. And I understand why people do, it's just not the lifestyle that we want. And so,
Audra: Hey, maybe that's why we're both still married. I don't know.
Allison: Yeah, no, I was going to say, like, I think that probably has a lot to do with just the fact that you're continuing to move forward as couples, right?
Like it's, there has to be the give and take, the understanding, the communication, right.. To make sure that it can be a lasting relationship too. So, and I'm sure Angela is like nerding out on the fact that you did a survey. She loves research and she loves data. So I'm sure she wouldn be like, can I get into those? Where's the results please.
Chelsi: We actually shared the results on our Instagram page. You guys can totally like stalk us on instagram to find those.
Chelsi: So I have to add the caveat that we get mandatory overtime scheduled in our agency and the summer, you can just bet that they're not coming home. And so, you know, because we have that cushion, we just make sure we put that in the bank and spread it out over the year. So it's not like we're over here, you know, being millionaires or something. That's just how we..
Allison: You budget it, right, that just one of the tools in your toolbox is like doing financial planning and budgeting for yourselves so you've got that, but I'd be curious. I'm very curious to know what are some of the other tools or the other things that you really share as far as like words of advice or wisdom for spouses or family members of first responders?
Like what else do you think is important for them to do or use or tap into in order to really preserve the relationships.
Chelsi: For me, I think Audra agrees with this, finding support, knowing who you can go to for support, knowing if you have an employee assistance program, knowing how to access the employee assistance program, actually accessing it, going to counseling.
These are things that we've, we've both done and our relationships that we are big, like, big proponents of, if you don't know, if you have an employee assistance program, go ask someone and don't hesitate to use it. That's what it's there for. And I don't even know how many times that we've, we've we've done it.
I mean, we've, we've called and we'd gotten our six sessions and extended our six sessions to 12 and all the things. And so, I think that's my, my number one thing is when you need help, know where to find it.
Audra: Yeah and Chelsi and I have talked about this pretty openly on our podcast. You know, we've both been in some pretty dark places in our marriage and, you know, during our husbands careers and, you know, I think that the key to you know, us still being married is we are very open about it.
We don't hide it. We don't you know, we're we really are trying to break the stigma of going to counseling and how necessary it is, and really finding support and finding somebody to help you. When you enter into marriage, you don't know what is going to happen.
You have this crazy idea in your mind, but it's very rare that it actually comes true. You know, the fairytale Disney story is not reality. And the spouse is alone a lot. And if you don't understand that and you don't have support, you will struggle. It's not, it's not for everybody. That's why people get divorced.
Sometimes they think that, you know, it was going to be rainbows and sunshine and they forgot that it's not all the time and that's not reality. So I think, you know, part of the reason why we started it again was because we wanted people to understand that it's not pretty all the time. There are some amazing opportunities from being in this industry, but there's also a lot of stuff that you can't prepare yourself for.
So if we can talk about it and have an open line of communication about it. It's it, we're trying to make it easier for others. You know, we want people to stay married and we want people to stay happy and be successful and love their job and love their career because it is actually an amazing career.
Chelsi: Yeah and you can have both, it's achievable. Obviously we're sitting here telling you we were married for 14 to 20 years. Right. So like, it's not because we've done anything differently than anybody else other than… Okay. First, the first rule of being married is to communicate with each other. Right. You have to be open and honest and, you know I think we've said it before, kind, compassionate, and curious.
Angela: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, kind, compassionate, and curious, you know, it reminds me too. And just in talking about, you know, a lot of times the issue with coping, with being with somebody in a really high risk position and profession overall. Right. And you know, I've talked to even, you know, a couple people since I've been married and even those who are, you know, like dating kind of getting their feet wet, is that like exciting, you know, it's a firefighter and he's out serving people and rescuing people and it's the puppies and rainbows kind of idea.
And then it sets in during fire season. Right. And they're gone and you just don't know what's happening. You don't have that level of communication that you did if they were in a slow station or something like that. And so it's the questions around, you know, what do you do when it's just on your mind? And that's all you're thinking about and, and, you know, keeping yourself busy, but not wanting to be so distracted that you can't answer your phone.
If the, if you get a phone call, things like that. And so I do know that, you know, that that's also something that I have a lot of friends and family that are struggling with too, but communication is something that I know, at least for me, It's so big. I think if it weren't for the fact that I already knew that my partner wasn't a great communicator, like we're obnoxiously amazing at communicating.
We would not be where we are as a couple. So I appreciate you bringing that up too. And I'm sure in you know, whether it's therapy, individually as couples. I know for so many of us, that's the thing that, you know, we tend to lose and then find again through support for a lot of reasons. Right. But I wonder too.
Are there other sort of like Allison was saying like tools or techniques around building that back up again, or find figuring that out, finding out what's going to work for you and that sort of communication realm, not only within the couple relationship, but also like as a family, as a whole.
Chelsi: Yeah. I think for us, like the best advice we were ever given by a counselor actually was schedule a time when you're at work to have a phone call. Every day and it's, it's not, Hey, I had a bad day, so I'm not gonna call you today. Kind of thing. It's no matter what's going on, you can take five minutes and pick up your phone now with the caveat being, if you're in the middle of nowhere and you have no service, there's going to be an issue.
However, most places you can, you can make the phone calls. So that that's number one. It doesn't matter. You got five minutes, you get downtime at the station. You get soft time, make the phone call. Number two within the structure of the family, I think it's really important. We called the handoff when he comes home from work.
I tell him, this is what we have planned this week. This is what's going on. What are your plans? What are you thinking? What do you want to do? And so then there's no miscommunication over what his plans were or what my plans were or what the kids are doing or, or anything like that. I also prep my children for when he comes home.
If I know there's been, you know, he's been gone for a long time or there's been a bad call, or there's been a line of duty death or something, something that I know is going to impact him. I kind of sit my kids down before he comes home and say, Hey, dad kind of had a rough week at work. Let's give him some grace.
So we're constantly having those conversations in our home. I think that that's probably unique to our industry. Most people aren't going to be like, oh, dad had a bad day at work today. You know, like just not gonna happen.
Audra: But imagine if they did, you know.
Chelsi: Right, right.
Audra: Yeah.
Chelsi: You're calling your spouse home on, you know, you're on your you're in rush hour and you're like, I had a bad day at work and that gets me and gives you your kids.
That's like, yeah.
Allison: So much of the advice that you just shared, I'm thinking like my husband's not a, you know, a first responder and, but that just implementing some of those things that you said would really help, like, right. I, I've never scheduled a call with him. I've been married. A long time, 12 years now. Like we've never done that, but like that would help.
Chelsi: It can be, Hey, we're going to set aside 30 minutes every night. When the kids go to bed and have a chat. We do it when he's not at work. We get our five minutes in, you know, we're not setting aside the time to communicate. We're not going to do it. Nobody wants to sit down and have tough conversations. It's just not a thing as a human. I don't want to be uncomfortable. But it's necessary because that's where the growth happens. Right.
Audra: When I think when you schedule it, it's more expected and it's a lot easier to fit it in, you know, once you get comfortable with it. Because the good thing about having the kids being a little older now is they've really, you know, they kind of understand a lot more like what, what happened at work and, you know, when dad had a bad call and, and stuff like that, but my husband is, he's been doing so much better the last couple of years now that they're older at engaging with them.
When he's at work, I don't even have to do it. He'll call. He calls every night when he's on duty and to say goodnight to them, and he has them on a group text now. And he sends them a dad joke every day that he's on duty.
And every once in a while in my house, you hear them all groan because it was some horrible joke. And they're like, oh God, did you guys see that dad joke? Like dad has, ya know. But it's, it's his way to connect with them. And it's really important because it takes the load off of me for five minutes, because they're thinking about dad and they're talking to dad and it's, it gives me a rest to know that, you know, he's thinking about them too, and it lessens my worry.
It just is so helpful to him and their relationship. And it's, it's something that they get to take with them. You know, it's, it's really important, especially when he's on duty that they're still able to connect with him.
Allison: Well, we are coming to a close on time, but we ask every single person that comes on to the show the same question, because it fascinates us, the response. So at this point in your life, what matters most to you right now?
Audra: I think spending time with my family.
Chelsi: I would say, I would say our health right now.
Allison: Ugh Yes! So blessed, right? They're all here. Right? I think that's the thing. Every day we wake up, we are, we have a gift and we've got to make the most of it. So I agree with that for sure. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. So thank you.
Angela: Thank you so much. So you two, can you please share how our listeners can follow you on social media or otherwise?
Chelsi: Yeah. So you can find us at, on Instagram @dearchiefspodcast and can also find us on our website, dearchiefs.com and we have a Facebook group, but I don't know the app for it. It’s on our link tree on instagram.
Allison: Perfect. We’ll link it in the show notes then for sure. Perfect. Thank you for everything that you're doing, sparking the conversation for so many people that I know that once they find you, they just feel so grateful for what you're doing.
Audra: Thank you for having us.
Allison: Absolutely.
Angela: Yes, thank you both! Take care.
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